4 ms·

Fefe is by no means "most Europeans", though he is quite well known as a ("political nerd") blogger in Germany. His comment on the matter, however, is less that

by rmk2 14y ago

Fefe is by no means "most Europeans", though he is quite well known as a ("political nerd") blogger in Germany. His comment on the matter, however, is less that of pointing and laughing and more that of worry, especially considering that there were some mild(er/ish) issues along similar lines in the wake of the 29C3. As a quick and dirty(!) translation of this blog post: http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=afb76b8d http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=afb76b8d "The 'sexual harassment'-story at US computer conferences is escalating further. This has poisened the climate to a degree where I fear the sentiment towards women is shifting from 'great, we need more [of them]' towards 'risk, risk, stay away, better not to say anything'. Smaller cons might possibly not admit women anymore [in the future], just to avoid being subject to such risks. This is all very unfortunate [or: distressing/regrettable]. (Thanks, Michael)" Everything in square brackets '[' & ']' serves as clarification.

numbsafari 14y ago
Is it really so hard to not make sexual jokes and references when in a public business forum that you would honestly stop attending conferences? What exactly do they add to the discourse on the actual technical issues being discussed?
- sp332 14y ago
  It's a bit dehumanizing to be forced to act like sexuality doesn't exist. This wasn't propositioning anyone, it wasn't insulting anyone, it wasn't explicit. It was a few lame jokes. I (personally) have no problem watching myself in these situations, but it always feels artificial. I'm not sure what American society is doing to women, but it leaves some of them incapable of dealing with any amount of sexuality. (Again I don't mean actually having sex, but just a lame double-entendre, delivered to a third party, without malice, makes you uncomfortable?)
  - mamoswined 14y ago
    Yeah, if I wanted to be in such a stifled repressed environment I would have stuck with finance or accounting. I'm a woman- making bawdy jokes is part of my culture and personality. I almost feel it's slightly discriminatory against those of us who don't come from a certain background.
  - groby_b 14y ago
    We're discussing Python at PyCon, no? I'm also not exchanging soup recipes, beauty tips, or nutrition experiences, because they're not appropriate either. Same goes for human sexuality. Not a relevant topic. As for the "lame double entendre", and being capable of dealing with it - I (and most women, I suppose) can deal with one. Or with two. Or three. But that's usually just the first 5 minutes of the day. It's a constant barrage of low-level "othering". (I hate the word, but it describes the process) It's not one comment. It's the fact that the tech industry often manages to feel like a permanent gathering of 14-year old adolescent boys. At some point, yes, it does make you uncomfortable, because everything is reduced to sexual references.
    - tomp 14y ago
      > I'm also not exchanging soup recipes, beauty tips, or nutrition experiences, because they're not appropriate either. "Oh, man, you gotta try that new Mexican restaurant down the block, it's delicious." "Let me tell you about this new anti-herpes product, it might help you." ... I can totally imagine such statements being spoken amongst friends (not on stage, though), and nobody getting fired.
      - groby_b 14y ago
        I'm not commenting on the "getting fired" part. That's a tricky decision, but keep in mind the people in question were there as "Evangelists". Which means you really want to watch what you say. If you spoke about the cool Mexican restaurant during the presentation, I'd sure as hell call you out on it. But it's still different from the jokes in that it doesn't make anybody feel excluded. Sexual jokes do - they signal clearly to women that they are an entertainment object. I'd equally call you out if you'd make jokes about other minorities. And honestly, nobody thinks racist jokes are appropriate - why do people still believe sexist jokes are cool?
        eyko 14y ago
        > Which means you really want to watch what you say. This is what makes politics a comedy central. There's no honesty anymore and everyone's words are calculated as if you're walking on eggs, lest someone feel offended. There is nothing offensive in what I've read so far (dongles, forking) and, seriously, these complaints are beginning to sound like religious zealots complaining about how atheists are offending them by making religious jokes.
  - a_c_s 14y ago
    Sex, religion, drugs & politics are all subjects that should stay out of the workplace. You can participate in all of these activities outside of the workplace - that's not dehumanization, that's maturity and professionalism.
    - sp332 14y ago
      What part of society are you talking about? I work in a cubicle farm in the USA, which is pretty touchy about that stuff. But the training I just got last week made it clear that those topics are fine as long as they don't constitute harassment.
jamesaguilar 14y ago
> Smaller cons might possibly not admit women anymore LOL? Is he serious here? If so I have to say he is misguided about how cons weigh of priorities. No con could get sponsors while denying admittance to all females.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- cupcake-unicorn 14y ago
  Yeah, that quote from the blog was a bit scary to me, I do understand feeling feeling uncomfortable of saying the wrong thing, but is it so impossible to keep talk professional at a programming conference that the best option would be to keep women out? I don't think it's exactly a huge sacrifice to ask people to make at a professionally oriented conference.
  - jamesaguilar 14y ago
    It's not even scary to me. It's just outlandish and misguided, and demonstrates that his opinions are not firmly grounded in reality.
- njr123 14y ago
  I think that might be more of a problem with translation? I read it more as 'the smaller cons might prefer not to have women attend', not that they would ban them. But German is not my native language, so can't say for sure. Original German: Womöglich werden kleinere Cons lieber gar keine Frauen mehr reinlassen

by rmk2 14y ago

numbsafari 14y ago

Is it really so hard to not make sexual jokes and references when in a public business forum that you would honestly stop attending conferences? What exactly do they add to the discourse on the actual technical issues being discussed?

sp332 14y ago
It's a bit dehumanizing to be forced to act like sexuality doesn't exist. This wasn't propositioning anyone, it wasn't insulting anyone, it wasn't explicit. It was a few lame jokes. I (personally) have no problem watching myself in these situations, but it always feels artificial. I'm not sure what American society is doing to women, but it leaves some of them incapable of dealing with any amount of sexuality. (Again I don't mean actually having sex, but just a lame double-entendre, delivered to a third party, without malice, makes you uncomfortable?)
- mamoswined 14y ago
  Yeah, if I wanted to be in such a stifled repressed environment I would have stuck with finance or accounting. I'm a woman- making bawdy jokes is part of my culture and personality. I almost feel it's slightly discriminatory against those of us who don't come from a certain background.
- groby_b 14y ago
  We're discussing Python at PyCon, no? I'm also not exchanging soup recipes, beauty tips, or nutrition experiences, because they're not appropriate either. Same goes for human sexuality. Not a relevant topic. As for the "lame double entendre", and being capable of dealing with it - I (and most women, I suppose) can deal with one. Or with two. Or three. But that's usually just the first 5 minutes of the day. It's a constant barrage of low-level "othering". (I hate the word, but it describes the process) It's not one comment. It's the fact that the tech industry often manages to feel like a permanent gathering of 14-year old adolescent boys. At some point, yes, it does make you uncomfortable, because everything is reduced to sexual references.
  - tomp 14y ago
    > I'm also not exchanging soup recipes, beauty tips, or nutrition experiences, because they're not appropriate either. "Oh, man, you gotta try that new Mexican restaurant down the block, it's delicious." "Let me tell you about this new anti-herpes product, it might help you." ... I can totally imagine such statements being spoken amongst friends (not on stage, though), and nobody getting fired.
    - groby_b 14y ago
      I'm not commenting on the "getting fired" part. That's a tricky decision, but keep in mind the people in question were there as "Evangelists". Which means you really want to watch what you say. If you spoke about the cool Mexican restaurant during the presentation, I'd sure as hell call you out on it. But it's still different from the jokes in that it doesn't make anybody feel excluded. Sexual jokes do - they signal clearly to women that they are an entertainment object. I'd equally call you out if you'd make jokes about other minorities. And honestly, nobody thinks racist jokes are appropriate - why do people still believe sexist jokes are cool?
      - eyko 14y ago
        > Which means you really want to watch what you say. This is what makes politics a comedy central. There's no honesty anymore and everyone's words are calculated as if you're walking on eggs, lest someone feel offended. There is nothing offensive in what I've read so far (dongles, forking) and, seriously, these complaints are beginning to sound like religious zealots complaining about how atheists are offending them by making religious jokes.
- a_c_s 14y ago
  Sex, religion, drugs & politics are all subjects that should stay out of the workplace. You can participate in all of these activities outside of the workplace - that's not dehumanization, that's maturity and professionalism.
  - sp332 14y ago
    What part of society are you talking about? I work in a cubicle farm in the USA, which is pretty touchy about that stuff. But the training I just got last week made it clear that those topics are fine as long as they don't constitute harassment.

jamesaguilar 14y ago

> Smaller cons might possibly not admit women anymore LOL? Is he serious here? If so I have to say he is misguided about how cons weigh of priorities. No con could get sponsors while denying admittance to all females.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
cupcake-unicorn 14y ago
Yeah, that quote from the blog was a bit scary to me, I do understand feeling feeling uncomfortable of saying the wrong thing, but is it so impossible to keep talk professional at a programming conference that the best option would be to keep women out? I don't think it's exactly a huge sacrifice to ask people to make at a professionally oriented conference.
- jamesaguilar 14y ago
  It's not even scary to me. It's just outlandish and misguided, and demonstrates that his opinions are not firmly grounded in reality.
njr123 14y ago
I think that might be more of a problem with translation? I read it more as 'the smaller cons might prefer not to have women attend', not that they would ban them. But German is not my native language, so can't say for sure. Original German: Womöglich werden kleinere Cons lieber gar keine Frauen mehr reinlassen