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I want to make a point that may or may not be applicable to this situation. Talking about sex is not inherently sexist. Making jokes about sex is not inherentl

I want to make a point that may or may not be applicable to this situation. Talking about sex is not inherently sexist. Making jokes about sex is not inherently sexist. It's inappropriate in a large number of places, but that doesn't make it sexist.

angersock 14y ago
I'd go so far as to say that--sex and reproduction being the original design goal of any lifeform--we should treat sexually explicit jokes as something not worth getting bent out of shape about, provided they aren't interfering with the task at hand. A couple of dudes making stupid dick jokes to each other in hall of hundreds doesn't really seem to me to be that big an issue.
- shardling 14y ago
  That would be an ideal situation in a world that isn't sexist. But since our society is, we have to deal with the consequences of that power imbalance. And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality. Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread.
  - tomp 14y ago
    > our society is [sexist] Very much so. I can hardly imagine women ever getting fired for talking about vaginas. Too sexist IMO.
  - GHFigs 14y ago
    And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality. And yet, that's an abstract statement in itself. In reality, was this harmful? More specifically, was "the future of programming was on the line"? Were the comments "crushing a little kid’s dream"?[1] Adria, PyCon, and the man's employer can draw their lines where they like, and take the actions that they see fit, but there is no reason to assume that any of them got it exactly right in some objective sense. Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread. I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Reasonable people can disagree without any of them being "silly" or "defensive"[2]. Being dismissed with those kinds of labels for not subscribing to a dogmatic interpretation of sexism drives more men into outright misogyny than away from it. [1] http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... [2] Or prone to "sloppy, biased thinking" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412004
    - shardling 14y ago
      I'll be honest -- I have no idea what you're trying to say. Your post only confuses me.
  - angersock 14y ago
    Mind backing up either of your points? I pull two things from your post: a) Somehow a world with sexism can't enjoy a simple dirty joke. b) We each have a personal duty to avoid dirty jokes due to a "power imbalance". c) There is indeed some sort of power imbalance worth correcting which is not already being corrected. d) Some generic abstract thing is harmless, but really it actually isn't ~-=in the real world=-~. e) Viewpoints not in agreement with yours may be dismissed as silly or defensive. That's cool and all--would you mind explaining your reasoning? I don't even disagree with you on several of those points, but as presented you haven't really done anything to aid a genuine conversation.
    - shardling 14y ago
      You, err, have trouble counting to two. :P My post is responding to this statement of yours: >we should treat sexually explicit jokes as something not worth getting bent out of shape about That sounds reasonable. But it ignores the fact that this isn't how sexually explicit jokes are used. They often are, in fact, specifically used in order to harass women. And historically it has been extremely difficult for women to do anything about this type of harassment, exactly because that isn't how most men perceive that type of joke. It was viewed as harmless by the people with power, because their experience hadn't exposed them to the negative aspects of it. The reaction of someone to this type of joke exists in exactly that context. And yes, I am definitely saying it is silly to ignore that context!
  - newnewnew 14y ago
    >"But since our society is, we have to deal with the consequences of that power imbalance." Who had the power in this situation? The propaganda and the reality are out of tune.
ceol 14y ago
You're absolutely right it isn't inherently sexist. However, when these types of jokes become so common, and are almost always made by men, and sometimes made towards women, it contributes to a sexist atmosphere. I can't even use the example "What if you had to hear jokes about vaginas and breasts all the time?" since it doesn't carry the same weight for men as the opposite does for women. I wish commenters here would realize this is supposed to be a professional convention, and these two were supposed to be representing their companies, so making jokes about their genitalia might be in bad taste. I really can't believe the comments here. Those remarks didn't happen in a vacuum. She had to deal with them multiple times beforehand. Her actions were not out of line.
- gfunk911 14y ago
  I agree they were inappropriate, just not obviously sexist.

angersock 14y ago

I'd go so far as to say that--sex and reproduction being the original design goal of any lifeform--we should treat sexually explicit jokes as something not worth getting bent out of shape about, provided they aren't interfering with the task at hand. A couple of dudes making stupid dick jokes to each other in hall of hundreds doesn't really seem to me to be that big an issue.

shardling 14y ago
That would be an ideal situation in a world that isn't sexist. But since our society is, we have to deal with the consequences of that power imbalance. And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality. Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread.
- tomp 14y ago
  > our society is [sexist] Very much so. I can hardly imagine women ever getting fired for talking about vaginas. Too sexist IMO.
- GHFigs 14y ago
  And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality. And yet, that's an abstract statement in itself. In reality, was this harmful? More specifically, was "the future of programming was on the line"? Were the comments "crushing a little kid’s dream"?[1] Adria, PyCon, and the man's employer can draw their lines where they like, and take the actions that they see fit, but there is no reason to assume that any of them got it exactly right in some objective sense. Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread. I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Reasonable people can disagree without any of them being "silly" or "defensive"[2]. Being dismissed with those kinds of labels for not subscribing to a dogmatic interpretation of sexism drives more men into outright misogyny than away from it. [1] http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... [2] Or prone to "sloppy, biased thinking" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5412004
  - shardling 14y ago
    I'll be honest -- I have no idea what you're trying to say. Your post only confuses me.
- angersock 14y ago
  Mind backing up either of your points? I pull two things from your post: a) Somehow a world with sexism can't enjoy a simple dirty joke. b) We each have a personal duty to avoid dirty jokes due to a "power imbalance". c) There is indeed some sort of power imbalance worth correcting which is not already being corrected. d) Some generic abstract thing is harmless, but really it actually isn't ~-=in the real world=-~. e) Viewpoints not in agreement with yours may be dismissed as silly or defensive. That's cool and all--would you mind explaining your reasoning? I don't even disagree with you on several of those points, but as presented you haven't really done anything to aid a genuine conversation.
  - shardling 14y ago
    You, err, have trouble counting to two. :P My post is responding to this statement of yours: >we should treat sexually explicit jokes as something not worth getting bent out of shape about That sounds reasonable. But it ignores the fact that this isn't how sexually explicit jokes are used. They often are, in fact, specifically used in order to harass women. And historically it has been extremely difficult for women to do anything about this type of harassment, exactly because that isn't how most men perceive that type of joke. It was viewed as harmless by the people with power, because their experience hadn't exposed them to the negative aspects of it. The reaction of someone to this type of joke exists in exactly that context. And yes, I am definitely saying it is silly to ignore that context!
- newnewnew 14y ago
  >"But since our society is, we have to deal with the consequences of that power imbalance." Who had the power in this situation? The propaganda and the reality are out of tune.

ceol 14y ago

You're absolutely right it isn't inherently sexist. However, when these types of jokes become so common, and are almost always made by men, and sometimes made towards women, it contributes to a sexist atmosphere. I can't even use the example "What if you had to hear jokes about vaginas and breasts all the time?" since it doesn't carry the same weight for men as the opposite does for women. I wish commenters here would realize this is supposed to be a professional convention, and these two were supposed to be representing their companies, so making jokes about their genitalia might be in bad taste. I really can't believe the comments here. Those remarks didn't happen in a vacuum. She had to deal with them multiple times beforehand. Her actions were not out of line.

gfunk911 14y ago
I agree they were inappropriate, just not obviously sexist.