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I think there are a few points to be made here: - First-offense phallus jokes should probably not be dismissable. - Phallus jokes should probably not b
by jamesaguilar 14y ago
I think there are a few points to be made here:
- First-offense phallus jokes should probably not be dismissable.
- Phallus jokes should probably not be made in professional, public contexts.
- It would be surprising if the guy was a valuable member of the team and fired on this basis alone.
- Adria's reaction probably didn't follow any principle of measured escalation.
I take issue with folks who say "it's a harmless joke!" But I'd also take issue with someone saying the dev who got fired earned what he got.
- moistgorilla 14y agoWho got harmed by this joke being told? No one, thus it's harmless.
- jamesaguilar 14y agoApparently it harmed someone enough that they were willing to complain to twitter about it. There have been a few good articles posted about why many women feel uncomfortable when the workplace is sexualized, especially in male-dominated industries. If you haven't read one, you may want to check into it.
- moistgorilla 14y agoThis wasn't the workplace first of all. This was a conversation (albeit a dumb one) between two friends. Last time I checked, I didn't need to worry about everyone's delicate sensibilities when I was speaking with my buddies. Also, she wasn't harmed, the way you are using that word takes away all meaning it has. She was offended. That's it. I would understand if they were saying a sexist joke or saying a joke that perpetuated some stereotype but all they were doing was saying a stupid joke about dongles and forking. How could that offend anyone that wasn't looking to be offended?
- jamesaguilar 14y agoI disagree with you on the harm point. Our legal system does too. Mental harms count. There are varieties of them that you are legally protected from. Work-context sexual offense is one of them. Whether pycon is a professional context really depends on whose dime and at whose behest you are attending it, no? I don't know the details of this case. In any event, it's probable that PyCon has a harassment policy that could be interpreted as to bar sexual jokes around people who don't want to hear them, but I don't know for sure.
- moistgorilla 14y agoI wasn't arguing against the fact that mental harm exists. I was arguing that harm implies that somebody was injured and a sexual innuendo involving dongles and forks is hardly offensive enough to injure somebody just like looking at someone the wrong way shouldn't harm someone in most situations. In a situation were someone is being harmed by something that is in most situations harmless (because they suffered some sort of trauma or they have a phobia) they should inform someone, not take up vigilante justice. Also, although these jokes were sexual in nature, they did not have anything to do with sexualizing women, putting down anyone from any sex, or targeting anyone in particular as the butt of the joke. And seeing as how these jokes were not intended to hurt or upset anyone or where in any way threatening or disturbing I don't see how it could constitute harassment.
- jamesaguilar 14y agoI would definitely agree that a single instance of these jokes would not and should not constitute harassment. The joker should not have been fired. I said as much in my first post.
- AnthonBerg 14y agoI find it more plausible that it's about dominative social behavior, rather than harm to the person.
- dubfan 14y agoConsidering Adria's remark on Twitter that she "feels like Joan of Arc", I would suspect this as well.
- lizzard 14y agoWomen in this field keep explaining how this sort of thing harms them. But when we complain we are "no one"!
- katbyte 14y agoAnyone can be harmed by anything. I'm a female and those kinda jokes do not make me uncomfortable at all, however some other non-typical random things do that i can never expect anyone to know about. i understand its my responsibility to handle my own emotions and feelings
- hythloday 14y ago"The results of two experiments supported the hypothesis that, for sexist men, exposure to sexist humour can promote the behavioural release of prejudice against women." http://psp.sagepub.com/content/34/2/159.abstract http://psp.sagepub.com/content/34/2/159.abstract Women are tangibly harmed by sexist jokes.
- vilda 14y ago"for sexist men, exposure to sexist humor can promote the behavioral release of prejudice against women" Am I reading it right that this makes the study irrelevant? Isn't it like "for violent men, playing violent games makes them violent"?
- moistgorilla 14y agothis wasn't a sexist joke, if it was I wouldn't be saying nobody was harmed
- dmishe 14y agoand there goes the freedom of speech
- cheald 14y ago"Freedom of speech" is only applicable in the context of a government acting towards its citizens. It has zero bearing whatsoever on interactions between citizens that the government doesn't get involved in.
- dmishe 14y agoOk gotta agree with you both here.
- jamesaguilar 14y agoFreedom of speech (in the United States, according to the Constitution and historical rulings of the Supreme Court) is freedom from government intervention in political and artistic speech, not permission to make lewd jokes and be free of private or personal consequences.
- nawitus 14y agoOne country doesn't define freedom of speech.
- jamesaguilar 14y agoActually, typically it is defined on a country-by-country basis, because it is the government of each country that is tasked with maintaining it (or not violating it). Since we are talking about a US-based employee and a US-based company, the American definition is the most (only?) relevant one.
- paranoiacblack 14y agoThat's not the author's point. He was giving a definition relevant to the situation. Pycon happened in the US, so if there are complaints about freedom of speech at the event, the complainer is no doubt talking about freedom of speech laws in the US.
- blhack 14y agoYou know, I've been thinking... It's also pretty unprofessional to wear jeans to work, and beer after 4:00pm on Friday is just a lawsuit waiting to happen. Also the schedule that the developers keep is really unprofessional. If one of the accountants tried to show up at 11:00am, they'd be fired! I also saw some pictures of one of our devs at Burning Man last year. He was wearing some sort of black, canvas skirt, and no shirt. TOTALLY unprofessional. Don't even get me started on the guy who tried to start a "nerf war" at work. A WAR! Excuse me, but people DIE in wars. How on earth did he think that was okay? It's like he was saying that he wanted to kill his co workers. /s
- jamesaguilar 14y agoWhat's professional is defined by the context. It would not be professional to wear developer clothes or keep developer times as a bank executive. In neither context are sexual jokes considered professional. Actually, generally speaking you can be held personally liable for creating a hostile work environment if one of your colleagues if offended by your jokes and you keep making them (assuming you aren't fired for the behavior first). And in case you're hoping that eventually sexual jokes will be permitted, the arrow of history is pointing the opposite direction on that one. Workplace practices and laws used to be much more permissive of sexual conduct ("misconduct" as we would call it today) than they are now.
- white_devil 14y ago> What's professional is defined by the context. What's professional is just meaningless uptightery. What actually matters is getting shit done, and treating others well.
- jamesaguilar 14y agoTreating others well is typically thought of as a component of professionalism. How you "get shit done" is another component of it.
- 14y ago