5 ms·

You got feedback from a frustrated user, and I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally? Listen, I'd love to be able

by bphogan 14y ago

You got feedback from a frustrated user, and I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally? Listen, I'd love to be able to write what I want, teach what I want, and do what I want without getting sarcastic reviews. But unfortunately people get frustrated and that's how they respond. "Oh, a tmux book? Who needs that?" "You suck" is very, very different from "the thing you built sucks." Customer service 101: Go punch a punching bag, have a cry, have a scream, have a drink, whatever. then reply with "Thank you for your detailed feedback. It's most welcome. We've already started taking appropriate steps to build better guides and tutorials. We'll roll your feedback into those. We're always working on improving Ember's documentation and every bit of feedback helps." And then go do those things you want to do for a while. No disrespect, but this guy gave some pretty valuable feedback that I love to get when I'm working on a book. He told you exactly where the holes are, and those are so easy to miss when you're too close to the subject matter.

Jgrubb 14y ago
Thank you for that Tmux book. I found it very helpful.
- bphogan 14y ago
  You're most welcome. I'm glad it helped.
Uchikoma 14y ago
Thanks for the Tmux book from here too.
- bphogan 14y ago
  Thank you as well.
trek 14y ago
In any other venue, I would 100% agree and would not have responded this way. Delvarworld's tone is totally mild and in keeping with typical internet culture. But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly. They blog rather eloquently about it http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civilized-discourse/ http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civ... And new topic posters are asked to keep that high standard in mind when posting. I'm sure his sarcasm was meant lightly, but it still deviates from the high quality of discussion I'd like to have, and rather than simply ignore a discussion where I was specifically invited, I opted to publicly explain why I wouldn't be participating. What I failed to do, and this shows my failing to keep that high bar, is explain what we could change to make the discussion civil.
- tomku 14y ago
  I can't help but feel that you're doing an excellent job of proving that a single short, civil post can do more damage to the community than any amount of slight sarcasm. If "absolute civility at all costs" is the basis for Discourse, I'd much rather try to have high quality discussions elsewhere. Edit: The link you provided has "responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content" as part of a list of things to avoid.
  - trek 14y ago
    Which is why I opted to say "I'm sorry, I cannot respond".
    - jaggederest 14y ago
      Can't you see that that, in itself, is a response? To not respond would be to not post at all. Edit: After reading the FAQ you linked elsewhere, your response is explicitly tone-based and unhelpful. I believe that violates the polite discourse rule more than anything the original poster said.
      - trek 14y ago
        As the saying goes: "You can't not communicate." Not responding is also communication. So I responded. Privately, to the poster, with a long explanation of the kind of conversation on this topic I'd love to share, and publicly explaining why I wasn't going to chime in after having been asked to. Most people are assuming my only response to him is the one they can see. They're mistaken.
        anigbrowl 14y ago
        I'm sorry to be blunt, but You're Doing It Wrong. You are not the arbiter of how to have a good conversation, but the nominal go-to person for Ember.js documentation. From a cold reading (ie not being an Ember.js user and not knowing any of the participants in the discussion), my reading of Delvarworld's commentary is that s/he worked to soften the blow of his/her criticisms by couching them in gentle humor, and describing systematically the thought process and frustration encoutnered in trying to get to grips with this tool. A lot of people would have just said 'this sucks/is stupid' or something worse. Slapping the poster down in public without any attempt at a substantive response, and then sending a long private explanation of how you should be communicated is a major dick move.* You are arbitrarily setting yourself up as a superior being and deflecting wholly valid criticism by making such public pronouncements. Following up with a private message is not much better, because it prevents the recipient from having the issue out with you without breaking the implicit confidentiality of email. * Since you referred upthread to 'dickitide' I am presuming the term 'dick move' is not going to be offensive to you. Your role as a community member is not to lecture other people in how they may address you (within reason, there's no reason you should have to tolerate outright abuse), but to exemplify the standards you wish to propagate. If you use community standards as a shield to deflect substantive criticisms of your work, voluntary or not, then you are undermining those very standards by using them for exclusionary purposes. The fact that you are in a distinct minority in this discussion and are defending your position by arguing that dickitude is the norm and you are the exception ought to serve as a red flag for you. My advice is to apologize to the original poster (ie Delvarworld) for your dismissive reaction and then engage with that poster's substantive criticisms. If you truly feel unable to engage with someone who is engaged in the mildest kind of personal expression, then perhaps being in a liaison position is not for you. In the meantime, I urge you to revisit the Discourse blog article you linked to (where you cited the 'don't be a dick' principle) and keep reading to (at least) the section titled 'Be reasonable, even when you disagree,' which includes a plea to avoid 'responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content.'
re_todd 14y ago
Thank you for your Web Design book. As a programmer, it gave me the confidence to explore the design world.
- bphogan 14y ago
  That's really, really cool to hear. Thank you so much.

by bphogan 14y ago

Jgrubb 14y ago

Thank you for that Tmux book. I found it very helpful.

bphogan 14y ago
You're most welcome. I'm glad it helped.

Uchikoma 14y ago

Thanks for the Tmux book from here too.

bphogan 14y ago
Thank you as well.

trek 14y ago

In any other venue, I would 100% agree and would not have responded this way. Delvarworld's tone is totally mild and in keeping with typical internet culture. But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly. They blog rather eloquently about it http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civilized-discourse/ http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civ... And new topic posters are asked to keep that high standard in mind when posting. I'm sure his sarcasm was meant lightly, but it still deviates from the high quality of discussion I'd like to have, and rather than simply ignore a discussion where I was specifically invited, I opted to publicly explain why I wouldn't be participating. What I failed to do, and this shows my failing to keep that high bar, is explain what we could change to make the discussion civil.

tomku 14y ago
I can't help but feel that you're doing an excellent job of proving that a single short, civil post can do more damage to the community than any amount of slight sarcasm. If "absolute civility at all costs" is the basis for Discourse, I'd much rather try to have high quality discussions elsewhere. Edit: The link you provided has "responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content" as part of a list of things to avoid.
- trek 14y ago
  Which is why I opted to say "I'm sorry, I cannot respond".
  - jaggederest 14y ago
    Can't you see that that, in itself, is a response? To not respond would be to not post at all. Edit: After reading the FAQ you linked elsewhere, your response is explicitly tone-based and unhelpful. I believe that violates the polite discourse rule more than anything the original poster said.
    - trek 14y ago
      As the saying goes: "You can't not communicate." Not responding is also communication. So I responded. Privately, to the poster, with a long explanation of the kind of conversation on this topic I'd love to share, and publicly explaining why I wasn't going to chime in after having been asked to. Most people are assuming my only response to him is the one they can see. They're mistaken.
      - anigbrowl 14y ago
        I'm sorry to be blunt, but You're Doing It Wrong. You are not the arbiter of how to have a good conversation, but the nominal go-to person for Ember.js documentation. From a cold reading (ie not being an Ember.js user and not knowing any of the participants in the discussion), my reading of Delvarworld's commentary is that s/he worked to soften the blow of his/her criticisms by couching them in gentle humor, and describing systematically the thought process and frustration encoutnered in trying to get to grips with this tool. A lot of people would have just said 'this sucks/is stupid' or something worse. Slapping the poster down in public without any attempt at a substantive response, and then sending a long private explanation of how you should be communicated is a major dick move.* You are arbitrarily setting yourself up as a superior being and deflecting wholly valid criticism by making such public pronouncements. Following up with a private message is not much better, because it prevents the recipient from having the issue out with you without breaking the implicit confidentiality of email. * Since you referred upthread to 'dickitide' I am presuming the term 'dick move' is not going to be offensive to you. Your role as a community member is not to lecture other people in how they may address you (within reason, there's no reason you should have to tolerate outright abuse), but to exemplify the standards you wish to propagate. If you use community standards as a shield to deflect substantive criticisms of your work, voluntary or not, then you are undermining those very standards by using them for exclusionary purposes. The fact that you are in a distinct minority in this discussion and are defending your position by arguing that dickitude is the norm and you are the exception ought to serve as a red flag for you. My advice is to apologize to the original poster (ie Delvarworld) for your dismissive reaction and then engage with that poster's substantive criticisms. If you truly feel unable to engage with someone who is engaged in the mildest kind of personal expression, then perhaps being in a liaison position is not for you. In the meantime, I urge you to revisit the Discourse blog article you linked to (where you cited the 'don't be a dick' principle) and keep reading to (at least) the section titled 'Be reasonable, even when you disagree,' which includes a plea to avoid 'responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content.'

re_todd 14y ago

Thank you for your Web Design book. As a programmer, it gave me the confidence to explore the design world.

bphogan 14y ago
That's really, really cool to hear. Thank you so much.