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I learnt lots from working closely with sales people (I didn’t like them very much, but that’s a different matter) That right there tells me you'll fail runnin

by foxylad 14y ago

I learnt lots from working closely with sales people (I didn’t like them very much, but that’s a different matter) That right there tells me you'll fail running your own business. I'm not a sales person, but I respect them (well, the good ones) enormously. Not liking sales people means not understanding how important they are to your business, and probably means you subconsciously believe that people will flock to your door if you build the perfect mousetrap. The perfect mousetrap myth is very seductive to introverts, and it's probably the cause of most startup failures. Without a good salesperson pushing your product, you could be peddling a cure for cancer and still fail miserably. I'd recommend anyone who hates salespeople actually does their job for a month. You'll quickly come to realise they have this thick skin that you don't; that when they get someone swear at them for cold calling, they just pick up the phone and do it again. You meanwhile, will feel awful for the rest of the day, and do everything possible to avoid the phone for the rest the day. By the end of the month you'll realise that just as your introversion makes you a great developer, whatever they have that lets them do this is incredibly valuable - you'll respect them. And like them. And your business now stands a chance.

mekoka 14y ago
You seem to be making some assumptions based solely on the fact that the author didn't like the sales people he was working with. He never elaborated on the reasons. But I can foresee many. For instance, it is possible that the culture in the company encourages certain types of sales people, while it turns off others. Take the previous paragraph and replace "sales people" with "programmers". You can see that the same applies. It has nothing to do with introversion/extroversion. On that matter, the usual stereotype of the ultra extroverted salesman that is incredibly successful is pure bollocks. Being extroverted doesn't build you a thick skin to be manhandled over the phone, experience and repetition does. As well, being introverted doesn't mean that if you have a bad conversation, you'll crawl back under the sheets for the rest of the day. You're either misunderstanding extroversion/introversion or you're misunderstanding sales, or maybe both. I'm currently a programmer and entrepreneur and in the past I've worked as a salesman without formal training. I've had phone sales jobs (phone plans), street sales jobs (random knick-knacks) and store sales jobs (men clothes). Only recently, after coming to the same realizations than OP, I've decided to formally understand Sales as a profession, to help me promote my services and software. I've been studying it for a few months and am convinced that most people misunderstand what selling is. We often like to imagine slick, silver-tongued, extroverted people, with poor ethics. This is only a partial truth. After all, sales is one of the few professions where money is directly tied to performance. It shouldn't come as a surprise that poor ethics be prevalent, it's the easy way out. But it does in no way constitute a requirement to be a good salesman. Most successful salesmen I've observed are unequivocal about ethics, they discourage dabbling in shady practices. I've also noted that a good number could in fact pass for introverts. My understanding so far is that even extroverts need to tap into their inner introvert at some point, if they ever want to become good sales people. Being extroverted might help in approaching people in random social contexts, but introversion helps to align oneself with the needs of potential clients, because it helps in observing and listening to what your prospect is trying to tell you. Whether introvert or extrovert, anyone can learn to act accordingly when the situation demands it. All this to say that selling is a skill and can get very methodical and technical. Like any skill, anyone can learn it.
- foxylad 14y ago
  Thanks for your pertinent comments - in particular I should not have mentioned introversion, a cheap cliche at best. I would take issue that you can train anyone to be a great salesperson. Having done a stint in sales and seen many good and bad salespeople in action, I believe (no evidence, sorry!) that some people just have "it", and many do not. Just the same way that some programmers have "it", and most don't. Yes, you can train most people to become a competent salesperson/programmer. But those people will be forever eclipsed by the occasional few who seem to effortlessly fill their quotas in the first week of the month, or knock out extraordinary apps in an afternoon. But then we're getting way off topic here.
aaronbrethorst 14y ago
You don't have to like someone to respect them. There are a lot of people who I very intensely dislike for whom I have a great deal of respect at how they do their jobs.
obviouslygreen 14y ago
You seem to be conflating "like" with "respect." I've worked with a lot of extremely effective salespeople; I've liked some and disliked others, but liking someone has absolutely nothing to do with their effectiveness. Many that I've disliked have earned that specifically because they were so effective, which leads to another issue with your suggestion, which is that you don't seem to separate good/ethical sales from hard, manipulative sells. Someone who can manage the latter is almost always VASTLY more effective, but deserves neither your respect nor your friendship. Yes, a good salesperson is a massive asset. No, "effective" does not imply "good," though your requirements on that point may vary. No, "respect" does not require or imply "like," and no, this is not such a black and white issue.
- foxylad 14y ago
  Good points. I felt that his comment implied he didn't like the salespeople because they were salespeople, which does say something about how much he respects sales as a profession. However, on re-reading the original I see that he might have meant just that he didn't like those particular salespeople. I think my point still stands though. If you have a secret contempt for salespeople, don't start a business.
orangethirty 14y ago
I don't like a lot of sales people out there either. Mostly due to their old school style of selling. But that doesn't mean I don't learn from them. Hell, I'm learning from a car salesman right now. And those are the worst (well, aside from stock brokers).
martinced 14y ago
"you subconsciously believe that people will flock to your door if you build the perfect mousetrap." Why be so harsh with him? A lot of sales people are utter jerks praying on stupid person: my mom is getting old and a bit losing it and recently she bought some totally unnecessary and shitty tool after seeing an "infomercial" on TV. Do I need to love these sales people in that infomercial? Certainly not. There are great products out there aimed at smart people which you can sale too by taking care of them and their needs and without trying to mindtrick them. For example JetBrains managed to sell me a license of IntelliJ 12 at 75% off on Doomsday back in december. Did they need to have a cold skin after many people insulted them for shoddy sale practices? Did they need to spam my email? I don't think so. So your overgeneralization as if there was one type of sales person is wrong. There's not just one way of selling things and salesperson are certainly not part of every succesful online business. There are many microISVs who have a perfectly nicely running business who don't have the singlest skill needed to be an used car salesman...
yareally 14y ago
Liking and respecting someone are two mutually exclusive things though. One can dislike someone and still respect the job they do for its merits (and the fact you are not able to do it well yourself) or the person for other qualities.
mietek 14y ago
> I'd recommend anyone who hates salespeople actually does their job for a month. Isn't this exactly what the author of the article recommends?

by foxylad 14y ago

mekoka 14y ago

You seem to be making some assumptions based solely on the fact that the author didn't like the sales people he was working with. He never elaborated on the reasons. But I can foresee many. For instance, it is possible that the culture in the company encourages certain types of sales people, while it turns off others. Take the previous paragraph and replace "sales people" with "programmers". You can see that the same applies. It has nothing to do with introversion/extroversion. On that matter, the usual stereotype of the ultra extroverted salesman that is incredibly successful is pure bollocks. Being extroverted doesn't build you a thick skin to be manhandled over the phone, experience and repetition does. As well, being introverted doesn't mean that if you have a bad conversation, you'll crawl back under the sheets for the rest of the day. You're either misunderstanding extroversion/introversion or you're misunderstanding sales, or maybe both. I'm currently a programmer and entrepreneur and in the past I've worked as a salesman without formal training. I've had phone sales jobs (phone plans), street sales jobs (random knick-knacks) and store sales jobs (men clothes). Only recently, after coming to the same realizations than OP, I've decided to formally understand Sales as a profession, to help me promote my services and software. I've been studying it for a few months and am convinced that most people misunderstand what selling is. We often like to imagine slick, silver-tongued, extroverted people, with poor ethics. This is only a partial truth. After all, sales is one of the few professions where money is directly tied to performance. It shouldn't come as a surprise that poor ethics be prevalent, it's the easy way out. But it does in no way constitute a requirement to be a good salesman. Most successful salesmen I've observed are unequivocal about ethics, they discourage dabbling in shady practices. I've also noted that a good number could in fact pass for introverts. My understanding so far is that even extroverts need to tap into their inner introvert at some point, if they ever want to become good sales people. Being extroverted might help in approaching people in random social contexts, but introversion helps to align oneself with the needs of potential clients, because it helps in observing and listening to what your prospect is trying to tell you. Whether introvert or extrovert, anyone can learn to act accordingly when the situation demands it. All this to say that selling is a skill and can get very methodical and technical. Like any skill, anyone can learn it.

foxylad 14y ago
Thanks for your pertinent comments - in particular I should not have mentioned introversion, a cheap cliche at best. I would take issue that you can train anyone to be a great salesperson. Having done a stint in sales and seen many good and bad salespeople in action, I believe (no evidence, sorry!) that some people just have "it", and many do not. Just the same way that some programmers have "it", and most don't. Yes, you can train most people to become a competent salesperson/programmer. But those people will be forever eclipsed by the occasional few who seem to effortlessly fill their quotas in the first week of the month, or knock out extraordinary apps in an afternoon. But then we're getting way off topic here.

aaronbrethorst 14y ago

You don't have to like someone to respect them. There are a lot of people who I very intensely dislike for whom I have a great deal of respect at how they do their jobs.

obviouslygreen 14y ago

You seem to be conflating "like" with "respect." I've worked with a lot of extremely effective salespeople; I've liked some and disliked others, but liking someone has absolutely nothing to do with their effectiveness. Many that I've disliked have earned that specifically because they were so effective, which leads to another issue with your suggestion, which is that you don't seem to separate good/ethical sales from hard, manipulative sells. Someone who can manage the latter is almost always VASTLY more effective, but deserves neither your respect nor your friendship. Yes, a good salesperson is a massive asset. No, "effective" does not imply "good," though your requirements on that point may vary. No, "respect" does not require or imply "like," and no, this is not such a black and white issue.

foxylad 14y ago
Good points. I felt that his comment implied he didn't like the salespeople because they were salespeople, which does say something about how much he respects sales as a profession. However, on re-reading the original I see that he might have meant just that he didn't like those particular salespeople. I think my point still stands though. If you have a secret contempt for salespeople, don't start a business.

orangethirty 14y ago

I don't like a lot of sales people out there either. Mostly due to their old school style of selling. But that doesn't mean I don't learn from them. Hell, I'm learning from a car salesman right now. And those are the worst (well, aside from stock brokers).

martinced 14y ago

"you subconsciously believe that people will flock to your door if you build the perfect mousetrap." Why be so harsh with him? A lot of sales people are utter jerks praying on stupid person: my mom is getting old and a bit losing it and recently she bought some totally unnecessary and shitty tool after seeing an "infomercial" on TV. Do I need to love these sales people in that infomercial? Certainly not. There are great products out there aimed at smart people which you can sale too by taking care of them and their needs and without trying to mindtrick them. For example JetBrains managed to sell me a license of IntelliJ 12 at 75% off on Doomsday back in december. Did they need to have a cold skin after many people insulted them for shoddy sale practices? Did they need to spam my email? I don't think so. So your overgeneralization as if there was one type of sales person is wrong. There's not just one way of selling things and salesperson are certainly not part of every succesful online business. There are many microISVs who have a perfectly nicely running business who don't have the singlest skill needed to be an used car salesman...

yareally 14y ago

Liking and respecting someone are two mutually exclusive things though. One can dislike someone and still respect the job they do for its merits (and the fact you are not able to do it well yourself) or the person for other qualities.

mietek 14y ago

> I'd recommend anyone who hates salespeople actually does their job for a month. Isn't this exactly what the author of the article recommends?