10 ms·

Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this.

Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. It slays me that "tradition" is so important to people that they will waste such vast amounts of money and prop up such a gross, violent industry in the face of reason.

youngerdryas 14y ago
My wife was obsessed with not spending much money on the wedding or ring. She's a keeper.
clicks 14y ago
My sister is still mad as hell at her husband for not having spent enough for their wedding (he spent about $25k), and I've heard her once or twice complain about the ring. I'll occasionally take shots at my sister for this (because, well, she's my sister and she loves taking shots at me too so it's fair). But my God I don't dare challenge the issue of spending extravagantly on rings/weddings with another woman (I once did, it didn't go very nicely for me). But... overtime here's how I've come to rationalize it: symbolism is a strong emotional asset. If it helps make the girl happy, then it's worth it -- because mental happiness is worth it; because mental health is a component of your overall state. And hey, afterall, I did spend $700 on my chair, $300 on my kinesis keyboard, $800 on my LCD monitor, etc. etc.
- delinka 14y ago
  Nit: "...mental happiness" Emotion is all in your head after all. :-)
- ryderm 14y ago
  > I did spend $700 on my chair, $300 on my kinesis keyboard, $800 on my LCD monitor, etc. etc. The difference is that these are all things that increase comfort and health, not only happiness. As somebody who sits at a computer all day, this has a huge impact on your back, wrists, eyes, etc.
- Zimahl 14y ago
  My mother always said 'if a big wedding guaranteed happiness everyone would have one'. Then again she came from a generation where a wedding was a church and family with a reception at someone's house - not an opportunity to feed 300 of you 'closest' friends. We've all seen plenty of insane, $50k weddings result in 3-year marriages.
- VeejayRampay 14y ago
  False dichotomy though, the chair is good for your health, the keyboard enhances productivity. The diamond on the other hand is just an outdated symbol of wealth that you flaunt around like it matters and brings nothing to the table but suffering and economic exploitation.
- qiqing 14y ago
  A friend-of-a-friend of mine synthesized a diamond in his lab for his wife, and etched diffraction gratings on some of the lower faces to customize the frequency of reflected light (he could do arbitrary colors this way).
  - rickyconnolly 14y ago
    That's pretty cool. Does he have a writeup of the process?
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Now this is the nerdy approach to diamonds that would be totally worth it. I would also love to read more about this.
- kscaldef 14y ago
  Not to mention that $25k is considered a completely reasonable amount to spend on a car. There's no doubt that the wedding industry is a racket (oh, did you want your dinner guests to have forks? That'll be $3 each. Water glasses too? ...) but also there's something to be said for not cheaping out on what's ostensibly one of the most important days of your life. FWIW, we managed to pay less than many people, while getting much better food and drinks than the average wedding and a more memorable, personalized experience by foregoing traditional wedding venues and caterers and instead simply buying out one of our favorite restaurants for the evening.
  - whatusername 14y ago
    A car has some level of re-sale value though. UNlike a Diamond or a Wedding.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      Good diamonds depreciate less than say cars or stereo equipment or computers. A Tiffany's ring with GIA certs can resell for half its original purchase price. There is an active secondary market in diamonds, so if you buy a high-quality GIA certified stone used, you should be able to sell it for a similar price to what you bought it for. Most of the depreciation on a diamond happens the moment you "drive it off the lot" so a used diamond is going to retain its value much better than a used car. The key though is having a good quality stone from a reputable cutter with full certification. Diamonds are not fungible like say gold. A low-quality diamond purchased in an expensive mass-market ring isn't going to be worth anything on resale.
      - spankalee 14y ago
        Where is this secondary market that you speak of?
        clobber 14y ago
        Just those pawn shops that will give you 10% of what your shiny rock is 'worth'
- vijayr 14y ago
  A crappy chair can screw up someone's back, so logically, buying a good chair is justified and it gives mental happiness. Same for monitor (crappy monitor can screw one's eyes, give headaches etc). So it is all logical. what real use does a piece of rock (which is what a diamond is) have? How can it possibly give mental happiness? I'm not sure I understand
pbateman 14y ago
Agreed. It's also a massive red flag for the future of the relationship if you can't negotiate over something like this.
- jamesaguilar 14y ago
  Or a sad commentary on your negotiating skills.
sliverstorm 14y ago
Nobody does it "for the sake of tradition". It is a web of expectations where the cost of bucking the expectations is great enough that buckling often is the more attractive option. It is also a well-entrenched example of costly signaling [1] in humans [2] (For the lazy, costly signaling basically says, a costly empty gesture is a strong indicator of mate quality, because only a high-quality mate can afford to waste lots of resources on an empty gesture) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Costly_signalling_and_Fisherian_diploid_dynamics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Costly_signal... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Human_honest_signals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Human_honest_...
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Sorry, the link to honest signaling is a bit lost on me, can you elaborate? Are you saying that people buy diamond rings because it's expected? I would hope there would be a discussion about that before going out and buying a ring. (And if not, I would consider that part of the "tradition" of: the man must propose, the man must spend a fortune on the ring, the man must surprise the woman on one knee, etc). Anyway, sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, just not 100% sure what you mean.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    I updated my original comment a bit. Does that explain things better?
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Yeah, it seems even more useless or irrational though.
      - sliverstorm 14y ago
        No less useless than a peacock's plumage or an elephant seal's beach combat.
fusiongyro 14y ago
My wife and I didn't have a lot of money. She wanted an engagement ring and I wanted to get her one, but we weren't especially phased by the diamond cartel. Instead we had a ring made from a large pincushion citrine and two medium-sized peridots. The ring is huge, brightly colored, totally unique and extremely eye-catching, and cost me about $600, which was almost all for the gold setting and the labor. She gets compliments on it all the time. So I think things are loosening up, at least here in the southwest.
- qwerta 14y ago
  Same here, we went with blue sapphire in white gold. Very nice color combination.
michaelt 14y ago
I'm a straight guy. Having grown up in the culture I grew up in, I have some irrational, socialized preferences of my own. Having an understanding with my partner that we're willing to indulge each others irrational, socialized preferences does have its upsides.
Zimahl 14y ago
I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. Karma be damned but women as a whole are swayed more by marketing then men are. They've been sold the princess wedding, the diamond ring, the brand-name clothing, etc. It's difficult to break them of this so sometimes the fight isn't worth it. I didn't pay for my wedding so that was my in-laws problem although it wasn't grandiose (but it could've been) and I was fairly poor when we got engaged so the two-month salary guideline was a joke. As for diamonds, my wife loves jewelery but has grown up and realized that everyone off the street can't tell the difference between CZ and a diamond. Case in point, I bought her a very nice ring from Nordstrom that looks like it's probably an $8k+ diamond ring and that everyone else thinks is a 'rock'. But it's just a big piece of CZ, surrounded by smaller pieces of CZ. Not one person has ever questioned whether it's a diamond or at least doesn't have the balls to. If asked my wife would be honest but she's never been asked (at least around me).
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jamesaguilar 14y ago
  > Karma be damned but women as a whole are swayed more by marketing then men are To make a claim like this, I'd normally expect data, not a bunch of anecdotes. Men I know are highly swayed by marketing as well. They want expensive cars, tools, games, alcohol, and other toys. It is hard to reason about the degree to which each is influenced solely from the products that are marketed to them. It is quite a stretch for me to believe that women are fundamentally more susceptible to marketing of frivolous luxuries than men. My guess is that you just don't think the things you want a frivolous.
  - ohsnapman 14y ago
    Totally agree. I see so many comments on HN along the lines of "ads don't work on me". Guess what? They do. You just don't know it. That's how good they've gotten.
  - Zimahl 14y ago
    Think of how men are marketed to and you'll see the difference. It's not a name brand or a lifestyle, almost everything marketed to men has some sort of pragmatic function to it. Be it the big F-150 that can tow a ton, to the comfortable (yet fuel efficient!) 4-door sedan. Sport cars might be an exception for most men (although not for me). As much as you don't need it, a $2000 60" HDTV is still more functional than a purse that costs the same amount of money. And now to the marketing for women. Victoria's Secret: you want to look as good as this. Coach: you want a purse that looks like you can afford it. Disney: every girl is a princess. DeBeers: it shows you he loves you. I can go on, but there's no practicality in any of it. It's even worse when the target of the ads are women but the stuff they are selling are for men, since women do a lot of purchasing in relationships. You see this a lot in 'high-end' stuff like watches and sunglasses. It's not sexism if it's honest - just accept that men and women are wired differently otherwise you do a disservice to women.
evilduck 14y ago
I short circuited this and married a geologist. She picked out a cheap diamond ring because diamonds are still "what goes on your wedding ring" but we only spent about $200 on it. Now, the misstep in marrying a geologist is that she owns many other rocks worth much more.
- gchpaco 14y ago
  But she probably has a better reason for owning them.
- logn 14y ago
  If your wife could choose any rock for a ring (cultural expectations aside), which would it be?
  - evilduck 14y ago
    Her answer: For an actual rock (which are classified differently than gemstones) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline and her reasoning, "Actually gains value, good ones are not common (like diamonds are), awesome variety of colors" Also said she likes aquamarine for actual gemstones (it's beryl, same thing as emeralds), but it's not as hard as diamond and wouldn't stand up to the daily abuse as well. She also said she'd enjoy an uncut diamond mounted in a ring, but that's probably purely the geologist in her speaking.
    - evilduck 14y ago
      She sent me this link as an example: http://www.etsy.com/listing/85093794/on-sale-rose-cut-indicolite-blue?utm_source=Pinterest&utm_medium=PageTools&utm_campaign=Share http://www.etsy.com/listing/85093794/on-sale-rose-cut-indico... She's also a fan of monzinite and clear topaz.
      - logn 14y ago
        Neat! Thank you. I've always wanted to ask a geologist this question so I'm glad I finally could.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 14y ago
It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demonstrates the man's willingness to forgo the other things he could buy with the money for a gift for her that does not directly benefit him in any way; and 3) It demonstrates to the woman's peers her husband's social standing. An important thing to remember is that women take on a huge opportunity cost in getting married and having kids. My wife and I just had our first baby. Pregnancy and childbirth is a barbaric process and a woman will never be quite the same after. Taking care of an infant is tiring, stressful, boring, and thankless--and no matter how enlightened the husband is and how willing he is to help out, because of the baby's hard-wired inclinations the buck will always stop with the wife. Finally, if the woman is educated and has a career, that career will be permanently compromised by virtue of getting married and having kids. With all this in the background, it is evident that the social convention of the ring conveys valuable information to a woman considering getting married and bearing these costs. Re: 1, all else being equal a man that can provide more is more valuable than a man that can provide less. Re: 2, all else being equal a man that is willing to forgo things for himself is better than a man who is not; Re: 3, all else being equal a woman's social life will be positively affected in a tangible way by marring a man of higher social standing than of a lower one. It is totally rational for a woman to ask: "I'm willing to give up all this, what are you willing to do?" The ring is just a way to demonstrate this commitment in a way that is universally understood and spares everyone the awkward conversation of laying all the chips on the table. Now, these elements are less important in 2013 than they were in say 1813. But at the same time to an extent they are not diminished in importance, but rather culture has shifted to downplay the uncomfortable truths at the root of these elements. For example, we like to downplay how much women really give up by being the child-bearers. But for an educated woman, if having kids cuts the probability of attaining a high position on her career by half,[1] the choice to have kids could mean millions of dollars in lost income over a lifetime. It's totally rational for a woman thinking of making such a compromise to demand from her potential husband a gesture showing that he is willing and able to take the other half of the bargain. But all this is something that we don't say in polite company, because we have fully bought into the mythologies about marriage that are in vogue at the moment: that it's just about "love" and all that matters is a mate that makes you "happy" and that it's an arrangement that is costless to enter into and exit out of. There is, of course, nothing inherent about diamonds that makes them the only option for this kind of signaling. Indeed, in other cultures a cash gift is the norm instead. But the value of a signal is in its standardization, so to speak, and it just so happens that the diamond is the standard signal in western culture. [1] Less than 20% of women never have kids, but about half of very high achieving women (executives, etc) never have kids.
rdl 14y ago
What do gay people do (in general) for things like this? The most I've seen (with male-male couples) is gold wedding rings; I'm not sure about female couples.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  I don't really know. Something symbolic would be nice, but in my mind it would be like a tungsten carbide ring with my partner's name in binary or something. Economical, long-lasting... but I'm not sure. That's a bridge quite a ways away for me. The lack of social traditions and traditional obligations seems daunting at first but it's kind of fun to be unencumbered (especially when I read reynir's replies and go white-faced from the ridiculous sexist pressure put on men and women to be macho and feminine still today).
  - rdl 14y ago
    I'd rather just go with really traditional and give land. Like, say, the Duchy of Burgundy.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      I really appreciate you and a few others bringing a little levity to this thread, makes me feel much better about it. Cheers.
- davidtanner 14y ago
  Well they might opt for something simple and classy, or perhaps something a little more ostentatious depending on their personality. But one thing is for sure, gay people getting married have much bigger balls than all these heteroconformist "men" that would buy an expensive rock they don't even want for a woman they clearly pedestal.
rondon 14y ago
If you want to buy some sparkly jewelry to signify engagement I highly recommend moissanite. It looks better than Diamond because it is double refractive. Also, no one will be able to tell a difference. 3 times I've taken my wife's rings to jewelery stores to have it cleaned or have a small stone replaced and every time I have to tell the Jeweler that it is moissanite. If you do tell people it is moissanite be prepared to hear "Didn't you want a 'real' stone?' or " It looks dirty " especially from Jewelers.

youngerdryas 14y ago

My wife was obsessed with not spending much money on the wedding or ring. She's a keeper.

clicks 14y ago

My sister is still mad as hell at her husband for not having spent enough for their wedding (he spent about $25k), and I've heard her once or twice complain about the ring. I'll occasionally take shots at my sister for this (because, well, she's my sister and she loves taking shots at me too so it's fair). But my God I don't dare challenge the issue of spending extravagantly on rings/weddings with another woman (I once did, it didn't go very nicely for me). But... overtime here's how I've come to rationalize it: symbolism is a strong emotional asset. If it helps make the girl happy, then it's worth it -- because mental happiness is worth it; because mental health is a component of your overall state. And hey, afterall, I did spend $700 on my chair, $300 on my kinesis keyboard, $800 on my LCD monitor, etc. etc.

delinka 14y ago
Nit: "...mental happiness" Emotion is all in your head after all. :-)
ryderm 14y ago
> I did spend $700 on my chair, $300 on my kinesis keyboard, $800 on my LCD monitor, etc. etc. The difference is that these are all things that increase comfort and health, not only happiness. As somebody who sits at a computer all day, this has a huge impact on your back, wrists, eyes, etc.
Zimahl 14y ago
My mother always said 'if a big wedding guaranteed happiness everyone would have one'. Then again she came from a generation where a wedding was a church and family with a reception at someone's house - not an opportunity to feed 300 of you 'closest' friends. We've all seen plenty of insane, $50k weddings result in 3-year marriages.
VeejayRampay 14y ago
False dichotomy though, the chair is good for your health, the keyboard enhances productivity. The diamond on the other hand is just an outdated symbol of wealth that you flaunt around like it matters and brings nothing to the table but suffering and economic exploitation.
qiqing 14y ago
A friend-of-a-friend of mine synthesized a diamond in his lab for his wife, and etched diffraction gratings on some of the lower faces to customize the frequency of reflected light (he could do arbitrary colors this way).
- rickyconnolly 14y ago
  That's pretty cool. Does he have a writeup of the process?
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Now this is the nerdy approach to diamonds that would be totally worth it. I would also love to read more about this.
kscaldef 14y ago
Not to mention that $25k is considered a completely reasonable amount to spend on a car. There's no doubt that the wedding industry is a racket (oh, did you want your dinner guests to have forks? That'll be $3 each. Water glasses too? ...) but also there's something to be said for not cheaping out on what's ostensibly one of the most important days of your life. FWIW, we managed to pay less than many people, while getting much better food and drinks than the average wedding and a more memorable, personalized experience by foregoing traditional wedding venues and caterers and instead simply buying out one of our favorite restaurants for the evening.
- whatusername 14y ago
  A car has some level of re-sale value though. UNlike a Diamond or a Wedding.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Good diamonds depreciate less than say cars or stereo equipment or computers. A Tiffany's ring with GIA certs can resell for half its original purchase price. There is an active secondary market in diamonds, so if you buy a high-quality GIA certified stone used, you should be able to sell it for a similar price to what you bought it for. Most of the depreciation on a diamond happens the moment you "drive it off the lot" so a used diamond is going to retain its value much better than a used car. The key though is having a good quality stone from a reputable cutter with full certification. Diamonds are not fungible like say gold. A low-quality diamond purchased in an expensive mass-market ring isn't going to be worth anything on resale.
    - spankalee 14y ago
      Where is this secondary market that you speak of?
      - clobber 14y ago
        Just those pawn shops that will give you 10% of what your shiny rock is 'worth'
vijayr 14y ago
A crappy chair can screw up someone's back, so logically, buying a good chair is justified and it gives mental happiness. Same for monitor (crappy monitor can screw one's eyes, give headaches etc). So it is all logical. what real use does a piece of rock (which is what a diamond is) have? How can it possibly give mental happiness? I'm not sure I understand

pbateman 14y ago

Agreed. It's also a massive red flag for the future of the relationship if you can't negotiate over something like this.

jamesaguilar 14y ago
Or a sad commentary on your negotiating skills.

sliverstorm 14y ago

Nobody does it "for the sake of tradition". It is a web of expectations where the cost of bucking the expectations is great enough that buckling often is the more attractive option. It is also a well-entrenched example of costly signaling [1] in humans [2] (For the lazy, costly signaling basically says, a costly empty gesture is a strong indicator of mate quality, because only a high-quality mate can afford to waste lots of resources on an empty gesture) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Costly_signalling_and_Fisherian_diploid_dynamics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Costly_signal... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Human_honest_signals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory#Human_honest_...

drivebyacct2 14y ago
Sorry, the link to honest signaling is a bit lost on me, can you elaborate? Are you saying that people buy diamond rings because it's expected? I would hope there would be a discussion about that before going out and buying a ring. (And if not, I would consider that part of the "tradition" of: the man must propose, the man must spend a fortune on the ring, the man must surprise the woman on one knee, etc). Anyway, sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, just not 100% sure what you mean.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  I updated my original comment a bit. Does that explain things better?
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Yeah, it seems even more useless or irrational though.
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      No less useless than a peacock's plumage or an elephant seal's beach combat.

fusiongyro 14y ago

My wife and I didn't have a lot of money. She wanted an engagement ring and I wanted to get her one, but we weren't especially phased by the diamond cartel. Instead we had a ring made from a large pincushion citrine and two medium-sized peridots. The ring is huge, brightly colored, totally unique and extremely eye-catching, and cost me about $600, which was almost all for the gold setting and the labor. She gets compliments on it all the time. So I think things are loosening up, at least here in the southwest.

qwerta 14y ago
Same here, we went with blue sapphire in white gold. Very nice color combination.

michaelt 14y ago

I'm a straight guy. Having grown up in the culture I grew up in, I have some irrational, socialized preferences of my own. Having an understanding with my partner that we're willing to indulge each others irrational, socialized preferences does have its upsides.

Zimahl 14y ago

I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. Karma be damned but women as a whole are swayed more by marketing then men are. They've been sold the princess wedding, the diamond ring, the brand-name clothing, etc. It's difficult to break them of this so sometimes the fight isn't worth it. I didn't pay for my wedding so that was my in-laws problem although it wasn't grandiose (but it could've been) and I was fairly poor when we got engaged so the two-month salary guideline was a joke. As for diamonds, my wife loves jewelery but has grown up and realized that everyone off the street can't tell the difference between CZ and a diamond. Case in point, I bought her a very nice ring from Nordstrom that looks like it's probably an $8k+ diamond ring and that everyone else thinks is a 'rock'. But it's just a big piece of CZ, surrounded by smaller pieces of CZ. Not one person has ever questioned whether it's a diamond or at least doesn't have the balls to. If asked my wife would be honest but she's never been asked (at least around me).

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jamesaguilar 14y ago
> Karma be damned but women as a whole are swayed more by marketing then men are To make a claim like this, I'd normally expect data, not a bunch of anecdotes. Men I know are highly swayed by marketing as well. They want expensive cars, tools, games, alcohol, and other toys. It is hard to reason about the degree to which each is influenced solely from the products that are marketed to them. It is quite a stretch for me to believe that women are fundamentally more susceptible to marketing of frivolous luxuries than men. My guess is that you just don't think the things you want a frivolous.
- ohsnapman 14y ago
  Totally agree. I see so many comments on HN along the lines of "ads don't work on me". Guess what? They do. You just don't know it. That's how good they've gotten.
- Zimahl 14y ago
  Think of how men are marketed to and you'll see the difference. It's not a name brand or a lifestyle, almost everything marketed to men has some sort of pragmatic function to it. Be it the big F-150 that can tow a ton, to the comfortable (yet fuel efficient!) 4-door sedan. Sport cars might be an exception for most men (although not for me). As much as you don't need it, a $2000 60" HDTV is still more functional than a purse that costs the same amount of money. And now to the marketing for women. Victoria's Secret: you want to look as good as this. Coach: you want a purse that looks like you can afford it. Disney: every girl is a princess. DeBeers: it shows you he loves you. I can go on, but there's no practicality in any of it. It's even worse when the target of the ads are women but the stuff they are selling are for men, since women do a lot of purchasing in relationships. You see this a lot in 'high-end' stuff like watches and sunglasses. It's not sexism if it's honest - just accept that men and women are wired differently otherwise you do a disservice to women.

evilduck 14y ago

I short circuited this and married a geologist. She picked out a cheap diamond ring because diamonds are still "what goes on your wedding ring" but we only spent about $200 on it. Now, the misstep in marrying a geologist is that she owns many other rocks worth much more.

gchpaco 14y ago
But she probably has a better reason for owning them.
logn 14y ago
If your wife could choose any rock for a ring (cultural expectations aside), which would it be?
- evilduck 14y ago
  Her answer: For an actual rock (which are classified differently than gemstones) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourmaline and her reasoning, "Actually gains value, good ones are not common (like diamonds are), awesome variety of colors" Also said she likes aquamarine for actual gemstones (it's beryl, same thing as emeralds), but it's not as hard as diamond and wouldn't stand up to the daily abuse as well. She also said she'd enjoy an uncut diamond mounted in a ring, but that's probably purely the geologist in her speaking.
  - evilduck 14y ago
    She sent me this link as an example: http://www.etsy.com/listing/85093794/on-sale-rose-cut-indicolite-blue?utm_source=Pinterest&utm_medium=PageTools&utm_campaign=Share http://www.etsy.com/listing/85093794/on-sale-rose-cut-indico... She's also a fan of monzinite and clear topaz.
    - logn 14y ago
      Neat! Thank you. I've always wanted to ask a geologist this question so I'm glad I finally could.

deleted 14y ago

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rayiner 14y ago

It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demonstrates the man's willingness to forgo the other things he could buy with the money for a gift for her that does not directly benefit him in any way; and 3) It demonstrates to the woman's peers her husband's social standing. An important thing to remember is that women take on a huge opportunity cost in getting married and having kids. My wife and I just had our first baby. Pregnancy and childbirth is a barbaric process and a woman will never be quite the same after. Taking care of an infant is tiring, stressful, boring, and thankless--and no matter how enlightened the husband is and how willing he is to help out, because of the baby's hard-wired inclinations the buck will always stop with the wife. Finally, if the woman is educated and has a career, that career will be permanently compromised by virtue of getting married and having kids. With all this in the background, it is evident that the social convention of the ring conveys valuable information to a woman considering getting married and bearing these costs. Re: 1, all else being equal a man that can provide more is more valuable than a man that can provide less. Re: 2, all else being equal a man that is willing to forgo things for himself is better than a man who is not; Re: 3, all else being equal a woman's social life will be positively affected in a tangible way by marring a man of higher social standing than of a lower one. It is totally rational for a woman to ask: "I'm willing to give up all this, what are you willing to do?" The ring is just a way to demonstrate this commitment in a way that is universally understood and spares everyone the awkward conversation of laying all the chips on the table. Now, these elements are less important in 2013 than they were in say 1813. But at the same time to an extent they are not diminished in importance, but rather culture has shifted to downplay the uncomfortable truths at the root of these elements. For example, we like to downplay how much women really give up by being the child-bearers. But for an educated woman, if having kids cuts the probability of attaining a high position on her career by half,[1] the choice to have kids could mean millions of dollars in lost income over a lifetime. It's totally rational for a woman thinking of making such a compromise to demand from her potential husband a gesture showing that he is willing and able to take the other half of the bargain. But all this is something that we don't say in polite company, because we have fully bought into the mythologies about marriage that are in vogue at the moment: that it's just about "love" and all that matters is a mate that makes you "happy" and that it's an arrangement that is costless to enter into and exit out of. There is, of course, nothing inherent about diamonds that makes them the only option for this kind of signaling. Indeed, in other cultures a cash gift is the norm instead. But the value of a signal is in its standardization, so to speak, and it just so happens that the diamond is the standard signal in western culture. [1] Less than 20% of women never have kids, but about half of very high achieving women (executives, etc) never have kids.

rdl 14y ago

What do gay people do (in general) for things like this? The most I've seen (with male-male couples) is gold wedding rings; I'm not sure about female couples.

drivebyacct2 14y ago
I don't really know. Something symbolic would be nice, but in my mind it would be like a tungsten carbide ring with my partner's name in binary or something. Economical, long-lasting... but I'm not sure. That's a bridge quite a ways away for me. The lack of social traditions and traditional obligations seems daunting at first but it's kind of fun to be unencumbered (especially when I read reynir's replies and go white-faced from the ridiculous sexist pressure put on men and women to be macho and feminine still today).
- rdl 14y ago
  I'd rather just go with really traditional and give land. Like, say, the Duchy of Burgundy.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    I really appreciate you and a few others bringing a little levity to this thread, makes me feel much better about it. Cheers.
davidtanner 14y ago
Well they might opt for something simple and classy, or perhaps something a little more ostentatious depending on their personality. But one thing is for sure, gay people getting married have much bigger balls than all these heteroconformist "men" that would buy an expensive rock they don't even want for a woman they clearly pedestal.

rondon 14y ago

If you want to buy some sparkly jewelry to signify engagement I highly recommend moissanite. It looks better than Diamond because it is double refractive. Also, no one will be able to tell a difference. 3 times I've taken my wife's rings to jewelery stores to have it cleaned or have a small stone replaced and every time I have to tell the Jeweler that it is moissanite. If you do tell people it is moissanite be prepared to hear "Didn't you want a 'real' stone?' or " It looks dirty " especially from Jewelers.