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As I've been able to tell, a lot of the fiat declarations by lecturers actually come from hard experience with students trying to rules lawyer their way to good

As I've been able to tell, a lot of the fiat declarations by lecturers actually come from hard experience with students trying to rules lawyer their way to good marks. If they declare with absolute finality This Book at This Edition on This Page, then students don't have as much wiggle room for whining. They can't say the material wasn't covered because, "Yes, actually, it was on page 149 right here." Stuff like that. ETA: Also see sibling comment from CamperBob2 for a good example of how students see themselves as customers of teachers.

SEMW 14y ago
From my perspective, that seems pretty bizarre. Here, sticking to a single text-book (or the lecture notes) would probably ensure you didn't get a First - for that you're expected to do wider research & reading on your own. The lectures aren't supposed to be comprehensive, they're intended to give you a feel for the subject and a framework to go do your own research. And that's not incompatible with CamperBob2's wanting professional curation of resources. (Admittedly this is for a humanities subject - it's be slightly different for less research-orientated subjects like maths - but even there, having a question set that you hadn't seen before is surely what you expect, not something to complain about. Otherwise it's testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability).
- loganfrederick 14y ago
  The issue of "testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability" is precisely why American students (myself being one) hate the textbook and university industries in our country. When the problem is phrased your/our way, it's obviously terrible. The business interests and incentives for lots of people involved on the textbook side promote testing on memory recall and limiting how someone is to "earn" their grades.
PeterisP 14y ago
What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. At least here if a student believes to be seriously wronged, he can take a re-exam in front of a committee with other prof's, not involving the teacher; and prove that his knowledge is really superior to the grade given, and this has happened; but it definitely isn't the easy way out - it works in cases of malice or prejudice, but not for laziness or 'optimization'.
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  >What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. If you have a weak department leadership, and a strong dean of students (one who favors student excuses), you can have a lot of students who will successfully challenge grades on dubious grounds.
  - SEMW 14y ago
    How odd (from a British perspective). Successfully challenging an exam result here would involve going to the Examination Board with proof of extenuating circumstances. And never happens as a result of people disagreeing with how their exam script was marked, for a start because we're not given our exam scripts. (I think a few unis do allow you to request copies, but they make it very clear that there's no possibility of disputing the mark you're given. Which seems unfair, but presumably they just don't want to have a precedent - if someone successfully challenges a mark, everyone will start doing it).
  - PeterisP 14y ago
    Ok, then there is some other body who really wants to do grading instead of you - then let them, if they have the authority. If you have already graded the student according to your conscience, then you've done your job properly; and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering - in any case, the grade mostly matters as the indicator of knowledge and if somebody wants a falsified indicator to flatter himself, then let him waste his time on that. The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss.
    - fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
      >If you have already graded the student according to your conscience I don't grade according to my conscience, or at least I try very hard not to. I try to grade as fairly and objectively as I can. >and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering I personally try very hard not to pander to this kind of crap. I think it misses the real point and simply invites more abuse. Sometimes it takes a willingness to tell those higher than yourself in the hierarchy to sit on it and spin. That's not always easy for everyone to do. >The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss. That's mostly right. I wish it was absolutely right. But, it's naive ignore the notion that some will judge your grades as an objective indicator of ability. In some areas (medical school candidates?) competition is such that students are desperate to have only perfect grades.

SEMW 14y ago

From my perspective, that seems pretty bizarre. Here, sticking to a single text-book (or the lecture notes) would probably ensure you didn't get a First - for that you're expected to do wider research & reading on your own. The lectures aren't supposed to be comprehensive, they're intended to give you a feel for the subject and a framework to go do your own research. And that's not incompatible with CamperBob2's wanting professional curation of resources. (Admittedly this is for a humanities subject - it's be slightly different for less research-orientated subjects like maths - but even there, having a question set that you hadn't seen before is surely what you expect, not something to complain about. Otherwise it's testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability).

loganfrederick 14y ago
The issue of "testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability" is precisely why American students (myself being one) hate the textbook and university industries in our country. When the problem is phrased your/our way, it's obviously terrible. The business interests and incentives for lots of people involved on the textbook side promote testing on memory recall and limiting how someone is to "earn" their grades.

PeterisP 14y ago

What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. At least here if a student believes to be seriously wronged, he can take a re-exam in front of a committee with other prof's, not involving the teacher; and prove that his knowledge is really superior to the grade given, and this has happened; but it definitely isn't the easy way out - it works in cases of malice or prejudice, but not for laziness or 'optimization'.

fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
>What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. If you have a weak department leadership, and a strong dean of students (one who favors student excuses), you can have a lot of students who will successfully challenge grades on dubious grounds.
- SEMW 14y ago
  How odd (from a British perspective). Successfully challenging an exam result here would involve going to the Examination Board with proof of extenuating circumstances. And never happens as a result of people disagreeing with how their exam script was marked, for a start because we're not given our exam scripts. (I think a few unis do allow you to request copies, but they make it very clear that there's no possibility of disputing the mark you're given. Which seems unfair, but presumably they just don't want to have a precedent - if someone successfully challenges a mark, everyone will start doing it).
- PeterisP 14y ago
  Ok, then there is some other body who really wants to do grading instead of you - then let them, if they have the authority. If you have already graded the student according to your conscience, then you've done your job properly; and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering - in any case, the grade mostly matters as the indicator of knowledge and if somebody wants a falsified indicator to flatter himself, then let him waste his time on that. The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss.
  - fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
    >If you have already graded the student according to your conscience I don't grade according to my conscience, or at least I try very hard not to. I try to grade as fairly and objectively as I can. >and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering I personally try very hard not to pander to this kind of crap. I think it misses the real point and simply invites more abuse. Sometimes it takes a willingness to tell those higher than yourself in the hierarchy to sit on it and spin. That's not always easy for everyone to do. >The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss. That's mostly right. I wish it was absolutely right. But, it's naive ignore the notion that some will judge your grades as an objective indicator of ability. In some areas (medical school candidates?) competition is such that students are desperate to have only perfect grades.