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As someone who goes to uni in Europe (the UK), I've never had anyone wheel in a an actual cart of textbooks, but nor have I ever had a lecturer proclaim only a

by SEMW 14y ago

As someone who goes to uni in Europe (the UK), I've never had anyone wheel in a an actual cart of textbooks, but nor have I ever had a lecturer proclaim only a single textbook is acceptable. Usually they give a list of 5-10, with a few of them being recommended. Even where they clearly prefer some particular textbook, they'll still name a few alternatives. If a lecturer ever did say only a single textbook was allowed, a lot of people would laugh and ignore them (especially those people who prefer using library books to buying their own, since libraries don't usually stock enough copies of a single textbook). It's not like translating 'read chapter X for the tutorial on Y' into your chosen textbook is hard, that's what tables of contents are for. I genuinely don't understand why all the US uni students in this thread talk about declarations by lecturers that some textbook is Required as if it was illegal to disobey. What am I missing here? It's not like the uni has any way of checking what you've bought, surely?

saraid216 14y ago
As I've been able to tell, a lot of the fiat declarations by lecturers actually come from hard experience with students trying to rules lawyer their way to good marks. If they declare with absolute finality This Book at This Edition on This Page, then students don't have as much wiggle room for whining. They can't say the material wasn't covered because, "Yes, actually, it was on page 149 right here." Stuff like that. ETA: Also see sibling comment from CamperBob2 for a good example of how students see themselves as customers of teachers.
- SEMW 14y ago
  From my perspective, that seems pretty bizarre. Here, sticking to a single text-book (or the lecture notes) would probably ensure you didn't get a First - for that you're expected to do wider research & reading on your own. The lectures aren't supposed to be comprehensive, they're intended to give you a feel for the subject and a framework to go do your own research. And that's not incompatible with CamperBob2's wanting professional curation of resources. (Admittedly this is for a humanities subject - it's be slightly different for less research-orientated subjects like maths - but even there, having a question set that you hadn't seen before is surely what you expect, not something to complain about. Otherwise it's testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability).
  - loganfrederick 14y ago
    The issue of "testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability" is precisely why American students (myself being one) hate the textbook and university industries in our country. When the problem is phrased your/our way, it's obviously terrible. The business interests and incentives for lots of people involved on the textbook side promote testing on memory recall and limiting how someone is to "earn" their grades.
- PeterisP 14y ago
  What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. At least here if a student believes to be seriously wronged, he can take a re-exam in front of a committee with other prof's, not involving the teacher; and prove that his knowledge is really superior to the grade given, and this has happened; but it definitely isn't the easy way out - it works in cases of malice or prejudice, but not for laziness or 'optimization'.
  - fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
    >What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. If you have a weak department leadership, and a strong dean of students (one who favors student excuses), you can have a lot of students who will successfully challenge grades on dubious grounds.
    - SEMW 14y ago
      How odd (from a British perspective). Successfully challenging an exam result here would involve going to the Examination Board with proof of extenuating circumstances. And never happens as a result of people disagreeing with how their exam script was marked, for a start because we're not given our exam scripts. (I think a few unis do allow you to request copies, but they make it very clear that there's no possibility of disputing the mark you're given. Which seems unfair, but presumably they just don't want to have a precedent - if someone successfully challenges a mark, everyone will start doing it).
    - PeterisP 14y ago
      Ok, then there is some other body who really wants to do grading instead of you - then let them, if they have the authority. If you have already graded the student according to your conscience, then you've done your job properly; and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering - in any case, the grade mostly matters as the indicator of knowledge and if somebody wants a falsified indicator to flatter himself, then let him waste his time on that. The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss.
entropy_ 14y ago
Well from my experience at an American university(though not in the US, so this may not apply). Some professors will assign graded homework problems by simply referencing the page/problem number of problems to solve. If you have a different book or edition then you simply cannot do the exercises. Also, as for requiring the newest edition, it's because bookshops may not have older editions in stock, so you cannot require an older edition. Therefore, the only way to make sure all students can get the same edition of a textbook you have to ask for the newest one. Yes, it sucks. The solution is to scan the problems you want to assign and make them available as PDFs to students, but most professors are too lazy or don't have time for this.
- SEMW 14y ago
  I think if any lecturers here assigned a problem set from a particular textbook (that the library didn't have enough of) without either photocopying it or putting up pdfs, conscientious students would complain to the students union about the lecturer, others just wouldn't bother doing the assignment. (Actually, in practice, tutors would just give out copies to their own tutorial group). As someone doing a humanities subject, our textbooks don't have problem questions, they're just textbooks. But even for subjects like maths, the lecturers generally have their own set of questions rather than using textbook ones (usually with only minor changes from the ones used by whoever lectured that course last year) and put them online - e.g. http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/examples/ http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/examples/
  - loganfrederick 14y ago
    I just graduated from one of the largest universities in the USA and your comment about "conscientious students" complaining to the student union just isn't realistic. The issue is so pervasive across the majority of departments that to effectively complain would have to be on a scale equivalent to just voting on an ballot for legal intervention. I envy the UK system in this regard. But the practical issues of convincing US universities to switch to the UK model are significant.
honestcoyote 14y ago
The profs certainly can't make you get a certain book, but your assignments are often based on the questions in the book and therefore, to have a passing grade, you have to get the book one way or another. Many, if not most, profs in the US will use book assignments instead of writing their own. In addition, the profs may write their own tests, but these also follow the assigned textbook so closely that studying from another book might be a handicap.
khuey 14y ago
In my experience more advanced courses in the US are typically taught this way. It's the lower level courses that have a standardized textbook/problem set/etc.

by SEMW 14y ago

saraid216 14y ago

As I've been able to tell, a lot of the fiat declarations by lecturers actually come from hard experience with students trying to rules lawyer their way to good marks. If they declare with absolute finality This Book at This Edition on This Page, then students don't have as much wiggle room for whining. They can't say the material wasn't covered because, "Yes, actually, it was on page 149 right here." Stuff like that. ETA: Also see sibling comment from CamperBob2 for a good example of how students see themselves as customers of teachers.

SEMW 14y ago
From my perspective, that seems pretty bizarre. Here, sticking to a single text-book (or the lecture notes) would probably ensure you didn't get a First - for that you're expected to do wider research & reading on your own. The lectures aren't supposed to be comprehensive, they're intended to give you a feel for the subject and a framework to go do your own research. And that's not incompatible with CamperBob2's wanting professional curation of resources. (Admittedly this is for a humanities subject - it's be slightly different for less research-orientated subjects like maths - but even there, having a question set that you hadn't seen before is surely what you expect, not something to complain about. Otherwise it's testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability).
- loganfrederick 14y ago
  The issue of "testing you on memory recall rather than mathematical ability" is precisely why American students (myself being one) hate the textbook and university industries in our country. When the problem is phrased your/our way, it's obviously terrible. The business interests and incentives for lots of people involved on the textbook side promote testing on memory recall and limiting how someone is to "earn" their grades.
PeterisP 14y ago
What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. At least here if a student believes to be seriously wronged, he can take a re-exam in front of a committee with other prof's, not involving the teacher; and prove that his knowledge is really superior to the grade given, and this has happened; but it definitely isn't the easy way out - it works in cases of malice or prejudice, but not for laziness or 'optimization'.
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
  >What could possibly be "hard experience" with rules lawyering? Just say no. If you have a weak department leadership, and a strong dean of students (one who favors student excuses), you can have a lot of students who will successfully challenge grades on dubious grounds.
  - SEMW 14y ago
    How odd (from a British perspective). Successfully challenging an exam result here would involve going to the Examination Board with proof of extenuating circumstances. And never happens as a result of people disagreeing with how their exam script was marked, for a start because we're not given our exam scripts. (I think a few unis do allow you to request copies, but they make it very clear that there's no possibility of disputing the mark you're given. Which seems unfair, but presumably they just don't want to have a precedent - if someone successfully challenges a mark, everyone will start doing it).
  - PeterisP 14y ago
    Ok, then there is some other body who really wants to do grading instead of you - then let them, if they have the authority. If you have already graded the student according to your conscience, then you've done your job properly; and you don't need to drop down to the level of rules lawyering - in any case, the grade mostly matters as the indicator of knowledge and if somebody wants a falsified indicator to flatter himself, then let him waste his time on that. The main (only?) value of grades is as feedback; if they want to waste that feedback, then it's their loss.

entropy_ 14y ago

Well from my experience at an American university(though not in the US, so this may not apply). Some professors will assign graded homework problems by simply referencing the page/problem number of problems to solve. If you have a different book or edition then you simply cannot do the exercises. Also, as for requiring the newest edition, it's because bookshops may not have older editions in stock, so you cannot require an older edition. Therefore, the only way to make sure all students can get the same edition of a textbook you have to ask for the newest one. Yes, it sucks. The solution is to scan the problems you want to assign and make them available as PDFs to students, but most professors are too lazy or don't have time for this.

SEMW 14y ago
I think if any lecturers here assigned a problem set from a particular textbook (that the library didn't have enough of) without either photocopying it or putting up pdfs, conscientious students would complain to the students union about the lecturer, others just wouldn't bother doing the assignment. (Actually, in practice, tutors would just give out copies to their own tutorial group). As someone doing a humanities subject, our textbooks don't have problem questions, they're just textbooks. But even for subjects like maths, the lecturers generally have their own set of questions rather than using textbook ones (usually with only minor changes from the ones used by whoever lectured that course last year) and put them online - e.g. http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/examples/ http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/examples/
- loganfrederick 14y ago
  I just graduated from one of the largest universities in the USA and your comment about "conscientious students" complaining to the student union just isn't realistic. The issue is so pervasive across the majority of departments that to effectively complain would have to be on a scale equivalent to just voting on an ballot for legal intervention. I envy the UK system in this regard. But the practical issues of convincing US universities to switch to the UK model are significant.

honestcoyote 14y ago

The profs certainly can't make you get a certain book, but your assignments are often based on the questions in the book and therefore, to have a passing grade, you have to get the book one way or another. Many, if not most, profs in the US will use book assignments instead of writing their own. In addition, the profs may write their own tests, but these also follow the assigned textbook so closely that studying from another book might be a handicap.

khuey 14y ago

In my experience more advanced courses in the US are typically taught this way. It's the lower level courses that have a standardized textbook/problem set/etc.