5 ms·

How To Get Banned From PyCon

37 points by craigkerstiens 14y ago

mkr-hn 14y ago
Let me help: > For example, during one of the talks on Sunday a woman took a photograph of two men who had been joking to each other by lightly sexualizing some computer jargon and she tweeted about it citing their remarks as offensive Jokes along the lines of "my dick is pythonic" may be hilarious among your python-hacking friends, but saying it in a space where you don't know who's listening and what they've gone through was not a good idea. > On the offensive remark I have very few details, but those I was given was that it was something like “you’re the hottest.” That doesn’t sound very bad to me but I suppose that could have been a polite paraphrasing of what I said There are many women for whom that's the low end of the sexual harassment they endure. It is pretty tame, relatively speaking, but another straw on the back in a culture that condones much worse. > Gray areas. Guys are pretty likely to make dick jokes when in the company of like-minded individuals, how far from conference grounds should they be before that becomes okay? Speak for yourself. I find it horribly inappropriate in anything approaching a professional setting. Basically, you seem to have limited perspective on the other half of the population, and a large part of your own. This is a great chance to learn.
- cpeterso 14y ago
  Regarding "how far from conference grounds", "joking" in the hotel lobby or restroom may be a gray area, but I would consider a BoF meetup as still within the realm of the conference. Also, whether the woman played the Cards Against Humanity game or not has no bearing on whether his behavior was inappropriate.
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    Here's a solid article on CaH from someone I know that covers just this subject: http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/09/15/offensive-play-the-politics-of-cards-against-humanity/ http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/09/15/offensive-play-th... Gives some interesting perspective on how someone can play a game with things that would be offensive to them in other contexts.
    - cpeterso 14y ago
      Whether the person reporting the incident was personally offended or not still does not make his inappropriate behavior any less inappropriate.
      - mkr-hn 14y ago
        Not sure how this relates to my comment.
- lifebar 14y ago
  >but saying it in a space where you don't know who's listening and what they've gone through was not a good idea. It wasn't said TO them, it's their own problem they were listening to someones else conversation. Seriously, do we need not speak when there are women around? Just Shut your moth as you might say something they don't like, Cover your eyes as you might look at them in a way they don't like and Cover your ears so you don't hear their "Oh this sexually harasses me" nonsense. >low end of the sexual harassment Someone really qualifies that as sexual harassment? Someone should really stop being offended by small things. >Basically, you seem to have limited perspective on the other half of the population, and a large part of your own. Did not got that, is making dick joke shows "limited perspective on the other half of the population" (and by other half you mean majority, right? As there are more women than men.)? 21st century, age where everything that is masculine, like "dick jokes" is bad and everything feminine is divine. Lets hope white knights like you will get to see true side of women.
- GhotiFish 14y ago
  My opinions: "my dick is pythonic" may be low brow, but low brow humor is just part of communication. I fall on the other side here. grey areas here I agree with you, professional settings should not have low brow humor. but "you’re the hottest.” here I disagree. I wouldn't call that relatively tame. That's gang mentality against a visible minority in the community. What's so frustrating about the status of women in technology is there is nothing I can do about the bottom 1% of my male demographic ostracizing women. Short of asking they be removed. I'm glad he was removed.
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    > I wouldn't call that relatively tame. That's gang mentality against a visible minority in the community. I put it in the box of things that could be brushed off in a more equitable society. But it probably sounded like I was downplaying it since we're in agreement.
- toki5 14y ago
  I think your tone here is a little more combative than the article deserves. >If anything, I hope talking about it reduces these sorts of incidents without anybody feeling like their rights are being reduced as well. This (along with >I'm not fighting the decision to ban me) read to me like a guy who wants to spark a dialogue on what should be considered appropriate at these events. Context is a huge issue here. I wouldn't come into any hacker-culture event with an expectation of professionalism and maturity -- maybe I'm not the majority. What is the majority for PyCon?
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    > I think your tone here is a little more combative than the article deserves. It's entirely possible it sounds combative. It's not intentional. > Context is a huge issue here. I wouldn't come into any hacker-culture event with an expectation of professionalism and maturity -- maybe I'm not the majority. A big part of professionalism is avoiding certain low-value behaviors because some people you might like to get along with are bothered by said behaviors. Professionalism doesn't have to mean putting on a suit and spouting buzzwords.
    - toki5 14y ago
      >A big part of professionalism is avoiding certain low-value behaviors because some people you might like to get along with are bothered by said behaviors. Which is something I personally wouldn't expect at a hacker-culture convention.
dylanvee 14y ago
Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/&hl=en&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
someone13 14y ago
If I can put my 2c in here... I think that one of the major issues facing conferences is the distinction between professionalism and private life. The way one behaves with good friends is very distinct from how one behaves in a group of strangers, which is distinct from how one behaves with your co-workers or other professional relationships. I think that the mixed culture of a conference might exacerbate this problem: despite the fact that you're attending with friends, and perhaps even going out for drinks, it's not the same as being in a solely social setting. If I'm with my friends, I know what jokes are appropriate, and which ones aren't - I've had the experience to do that. On the other hand, if I'm at a conference, someone nearby could have a bad reaction to a comment that my friends wouldn't react to - people are different, and an "innocent dick joke" to a friend could really bother someone else. I don't pretend to say that this is the sole problem, or even a real solution, but I think it might be worth recognizing.
- RougeFemme 14y ago
  Good point - I had never thought of it as friends vs. non-friends before - just professional vs. non-professional. So maybe the filter should be "is this something I would say around a stranger regardless of whether the environment is professional or non-professional?" Still, for far too may, I think the answer might still be yes. It's as if people think there is some sort of sound-proofing around them - or don't care that there isn't.
cbs 14y ago
Conferences are a minefield. Conflicting opinions of if a particular conference should be, is, and what qualifies as, a "professional work environment" run rampant. When you have everyone attending because it's necessary and/or just a break from the office, they have a professional setting because people are not excited to be there. I see this in the business domain (not-tech) conferences all the time, any recreation happens completely separate from the conference. Tech conferences get tech enthusiasts. Suddenly people actually want to be there and have fun with the other attendees. An easy example is DEFCON, people treat it like a party with talks, because for over a decade it was unambiguously a party with talks. Problems are multiplied when people want to relax standards of professionalism on some axis but maintain it on others (or even ratchet it up beyond what people are used to in their own offices). Clearly defining socially feasible expectations of behavior and communicating that to attendees never happens, then "incidents" occur.
- toki5 14y ago
  >Problems are multiplied when people want to relax standards of professionalism on some axis but maintain it on others This, I think, is the main issue he's bringing up -- that the PyCon Code of Conduct (apparently) doesn't really match its current atmosphere.
- silencio 14y ago
  > An easy example is DEFCON, people treat it like a party with talks, because for over a decade it was unambiguously a party with talks. I would like to believe that even a party is possible without harassing or discriminating against other people. I don't think it has anything to do with trying to be a "professional" work environment. I just want to see it as being respectful to people around you all the time, everywhere. Fully believing that, I have never ever found a desire to hit on or make derogatory comments to another man unprovoked, put boobs on a presentation slide, or grab someone's crotch even while incredibly drunk, outside of where my partner is concerned when we're in private. I find it incredibly difficult to deal with the fact that I've encountered many men that think doing any of that is perfectly normal until someone says otherwise. Sadly, I don't think defcon has ever met that standard so I haven't attended except with friends in a very long time and I've always swore off unofficial and after-conference events. Plenty of good people but it's always those couple rotten apples that like to be disrespectful...
tapatio 14y ago
He should not censor himself. If a person doesn't like what he/she is hearing he/she can just go somewhere else. Nobody is forcing him/her to stand next to him and to listen to his sex jokes.
- Smudge 14y ago
  Pro-tip: Victim blaming and sexist generalizations don't help your argument. Edit: While I'm glad you removed the remark about "fugly chicks", your attitude still enforces an exclusionary environment.
  - tapatio 14y ago
    Pro-tip acknowledged. Comment updated.
    - tapatio 14y ago
      How can this comment get down voted? Ha.
- silencio 14y ago
  Hard to find another place to go when there's always someone that seems to forget the meaning of the word "context". And you just deleted your line about "fugly girls" being the only ones to complain... if I'm so fugly for wanting people to be more considerate to each other, boy, there are a lot of people out there that are willing to hit on me anyway, inappropriately.
  - tapatio 14y ago
    I deleted the fulgy comment following the advice of the pro-tip. I agree, context has a lot to do with what is appropriate and inappropriate to say. That being said, I think we can agree that a conference setting is different than a workplace setting. A lot of people go to conferences for fun. Mix alcohol in with that and you are going to have a party. A party with alcohol can lead to stuff like what happened - jokes/comments being said that might offend people. Don't like the jokes or comments? Leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay there. I've been in those kinds of situations and guess what, I just get up and leave.
NateDad 14y ago
Let me sum up: How to get banned from PyCon: 1. Get drunk 2. Heckle a female presenter during a public presentation 3. Light up a pipe full of weed in the middle of the audience The rest of the article is irrelevant.
- olgeni 14y ago
  At least the guy didn't wear a Rails T-shirt...
theevocater 14y ago
So wait, this guy was smoking some weed (I assume) in the middle of a con and got banned. Why is this even questioned? Whether you agree with smoking weed or not, he committed a crime during a PyCon event.
- toki5 14y ago
  Nobody's questioning it. I'm not sure where that impression came from.
  - theevocater 14y ago
    Just, why is everyone focusing on the smokescreen of he said/she said? Who cares! He broke a federal law!
  - haven 14y ago
    I'm questioning it. The behavior in question seems alcohol-spawned. If alcohol is tolerated it seems bizarre to treat cannabis draconianly. If cannabis use is legal in the state, there is no prosecutable crime. Federal cannabis drug law is not enforced against cannabis users, only those who sell it and thereby more directly touch on interstate commerce. If breaking unenforced federal law is ban-able behavior, then better ban everyone. I think the unfortunate thing is that we all break federal law every day. (Most of us at least violate the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Ever made a GET request potentially in violation of an API's ToS?) Scary thing is, the feds actually prosecute under the CFAA.
    - theevocater 14y ago
      see http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inaprop...
- salsakran 14y ago
  Smoking weed is not a crime in CA, which is where PyCon was held this year.
jacobian 14y ago
FYI, here's PyCon's official statement on this incident: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inaprop.... I think it may answer some of the questions people have here; if you have additional questions please email me (jacob@jacobian.org) and I'll do my best to answer 'em.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
haven 14y ago
I absolutely understand not tolerating sexism or other bigotry, but a three year ban for cannabis use seems excessive. Ask him to take it outside?
- cpeterso 14y ago
  If cannabis use is illegal where the conference is held, the conference organizers might be responsible for attendees' smoking.
Smudge 14y ago
> I realize a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and in this case that line was chosen at me. When you're the only one to cross a particular line among many other people, don't be surprised when you get called out. The lines may be fuzzy, sure, or it might be a pretty clear-cut case (such as, smoking weed in a crowded audience during a tech talk), but regardless you should try to have an idea of how your actions might affect those around you. As a thought exercise, ask yourself if it would be okay for everyone to be doing what you are currently doing. Say, heckling the presenter, or using illicit substances, or even just talking to the person next to you. If an audience full of people heckling, smoking up, or chattering to each other would be counter-productive to the presenter's ability to present and/or an individual's enjoyment of the event, maybe you should consider not doing it yourself.
rachbelaid 14y ago
For being in the room, I have to admit that I have been shocked by the words. Not because it was a tech conference or the code of conduct but because but it's NOT A WAY of speaking anywhere and specially in public with or without presence of woman. Maybe I m too old school coming from the old continent anyway... I appreciate the honesty of his post and to admit his fault publicly. But I guess that having somebody banned many years will make think some peoples for the next pycon about how to behave in public. Maybe I shouldn't but a part of myself still feel sorry for him. Something I learned from professional event, if you don't handle well the booze then watch out your drinking to avoid of being a fool. I hope that he won't move to ruby before 2015.
teilo 14y ago
Gee, who knew that smoking illegal drugs at a conference would get you banned?

Let me help: > For example, during one of the talks on Sunday a woman took a photograph of two men who had been joking to each other by lightly sexualizing some computer jargon and she tweeted about it citing their remarks as offensive Jokes along the lines of "my dick is pythonic" may be hilarious among your python-hacking friends, but saying it in a space where you don't know who's listening and what they've gone through was not a good idea. > On the offensive remark I have very few details, but those I was given was that it was something like “you’re the hottest.” That doesn’t sound very bad to me but I suppose that could have been a polite paraphrasing of what I said There are many women for whom that's the low end of the sexual harassment they endure. It is pretty tame, relatively speaking, but another straw on the back in a culture that condones much worse. > Gray areas. Guys are pretty likely to make dick jokes when in the company of like-minded individuals, how far from conference grounds should they be before that becomes okay? Speak for yourself. I find it horribly inappropriate in anything approaching a professional setting. Basically, you seem to have limited perspective on the other half of the population, and a large part of your own. This is a great chance to learn.

cpeterso 14y ago
Regarding "how far from conference grounds", "joking" in the hotel lobby or restroom may be a gray area, but I would consider a BoF meetup as still within the realm of the conference. Also, whether the woman played the Cards Against Humanity game or not has no bearing on whether his behavior was inappropriate.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  Here's a solid article on CaH from someone I know that covers just this subject: http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/09/15/offensive-play-the-politics-of-cards-against-humanity/ http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/09/15/offensive-play-th... Gives some interesting perspective on how someone can play a game with things that would be offensive to them in other contexts.
  - cpeterso 14y ago
    Whether the person reporting the incident was personally offended or not still does not make his inappropriate behavior any less inappropriate.
    - mkr-hn 14y ago
      Not sure how this relates to my comment.
lifebar 14y ago
>but saying it in a space where you don't know who's listening and what they've gone through was not a good idea. It wasn't said TO them, it's their own problem they were listening to someones else conversation. Seriously, do we need not speak when there are women around? Just Shut your moth as you might say something they don't like, Cover your eyes as you might look at them in a way they don't like and Cover your ears so you don't hear their "Oh this sexually harasses me" nonsense. >low end of the sexual harassment Someone really qualifies that as sexual harassment? Someone should really stop being offended by small things. >Basically, you seem to have limited perspective on the other half of the population, and a large part of your own. Did not got that, is making dick joke shows "limited perspective on the other half of the population" (and by other half you mean majority, right? As there are more women than men.)? 21st century, age where everything that is masculine, like "dick jokes" is bad and everything feminine is divine. Lets hope white knights like you will get to see true side of women.
GhotiFish 14y ago
My opinions: "my dick is pythonic" may be low brow, but low brow humor is just part of communication. I fall on the other side here. grey areas here I agree with you, professional settings should not have low brow humor. but "you’re the hottest.” here I disagree. I wouldn't call that relatively tame. That's gang mentality against a visible minority in the community. What's so frustrating about the status of women in technology is there is nothing I can do about the bottom 1% of my male demographic ostracizing women. Short of asking they be removed. I'm glad he was removed.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  > I wouldn't call that relatively tame. That's gang mentality against a visible minority in the community. I put it in the box of things that could be brushed off in a more equitable society. But it probably sounded like I was downplaying it since we're in agreement.
toki5 14y ago
I think your tone here is a little more combative than the article deserves. >If anything, I hope talking about it reduces these sorts of incidents without anybody feeling like their rights are being reduced as well. This (along with >I'm not fighting the decision to ban me) read to me like a guy who wants to spark a dialogue on what should be considered appropriate at these events. Context is a huge issue here. I wouldn't come into any hacker-culture event with an expectation of professionalism and maturity -- maybe I'm not the majority. What is the majority for PyCon?
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  > I think your tone here is a little more combative than the article deserves. It's entirely possible it sounds combative. It's not intentional. > Context is a huge issue here. I wouldn't come into any hacker-culture event with an expectation of professionalism and maturity -- maybe I'm not the majority. A big part of professionalism is avoiding certain low-value behaviors because some people you might like to get along with are bothered by said behaviors. Professionalism doesn't have to mean putting on a suit and spouting buzzwords.
  - toki5 14y ago
    >A big part of professionalism is avoiding certain low-value behaviors because some people you might like to get along with are bothered by said behaviors. Which is something I personally wouldn't expect at a hacker-culture convention.

dylanvee 14y ago

Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/&hl=en&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...

someone13 14y ago

If I can put my 2c in here... I think that one of the major issues facing conferences is the distinction between professionalism and private life. The way one behaves with good friends is very distinct from how one behaves in a group of strangers, which is distinct from how one behaves with your co-workers or other professional relationships. I think that the mixed culture of a conference might exacerbate this problem: despite the fact that you're attending with friends, and perhaps even going out for drinks, it's not the same as being in a solely social setting. If I'm with my friends, I know what jokes are appropriate, and which ones aren't - I've had the experience to do that. On the other hand, if I'm at a conference, someone nearby could have a bad reaction to a comment that my friends wouldn't react to - people are different, and an "innocent dick joke" to a friend could really bother someone else. I don't pretend to say that this is the sole problem, or even a real solution, but I think it might be worth recognizing.

RougeFemme 14y ago
Good point - I had never thought of it as friends vs. non-friends before - just professional vs. non-professional. So maybe the filter should be "is this something I would say around a stranger regardless of whether the environment is professional or non-professional?" Still, for far too may, I think the answer might still be yes. It's as if people think there is some sort of sound-proofing around them - or don't care that there isn't.

cbs 14y ago

Conferences are a minefield. Conflicting opinions of if a particular conference should be, is, and what qualifies as, a "professional work environment" run rampant. When you have everyone attending because it's necessary and/or just a break from the office, they have a professional setting because people are not excited to be there. I see this in the business domain (not-tech) conferences all the time, any recreation happens completely separate from the conference. Tech conferences get tech enthusiasts. Suddenly people actually want to be there and have fun with the other attendees. An easy example is DEFCON, people treat it like a party with talks, because for over a decade it was unambiguously a party with talks. Problems are multiplied when people want to relax standards of professionalism on some axis but maintain it on others (or even ratchet it up beyond what people are used to in their own offices). Clearly defining socially feasible expectations of behavior and communicating that to attendees never happens, then "incidents" occur.

toki5 14y ago
>Problems are multiplied when people want to relax standards of professionalism on some axis but maintain it on others This, I think, is the main issue he's bringing up -- that the PyCon Code of Conduct (apparently) doesn't really match its current atmosphere.
silencio 14y ago
> An easy example is DEFCON, people treat it like a party with talks, because for over a decade it was unambiguously a party with talks. I would like to believe that even a party is possible without harassing or discriminating against other people. I don't think it has anything to do with trying to be a "professional" work environment. I just want to see it as being respectful to people around you all the time, everywhere. Fully believing that, I have never ever found a desire to hit on or make derogatory comments to another man unprovoked, put boobs on a presentation slide, or grab someone's crotch even while incredibly drunk, outside of where my partner is concerned when we're in private. I find it incredibly difficult to deal with the fact that I've encountered many men that think doing any of that is perfectly normal until someone says otherwise. Sadly, I don't think defcon has ever met that standard so I haven't attended except with friends in a very long time and I've always swore off unofficial and after-conference events. Plenty of good people but it's always those couple rotten apples that like to be disrespectful...

tapatio 14y ago

He should not censor himself. If a person doesn't like what he/she is hearing he/she can just go somewhere else. Nobody is forcing him/her to stand next to him and to listen to his sex jokes.

Smudge 14y ago
Pro-tip: Victim blaming and sexist generalizations don't help your argument. Edit: While I'm glad you removed the remark about "fugly chicks", your attitude still enforces an exclusionary environment.
- tapatio 14y ago
  Pro-tip acknowledged. Comment updated.
  - tapatio 14y ago
    How can this comment get down voted? Ha.
silencio 14y ago
Hard to find another place to go when there's always someone that seems to forget the meaning of the word "context". And you just deleted your line about "fugly girls" being the only ones to complain... if I'm so fugly for wanting people to be more considerate to each other, boy, there are a lot of people out there that are willing to hit on me anyway, inappropriately.
- tapatio 14y ago
  I deleted the fulgy comment following the advice of the pro-tip. I agree, context has a lot to do with what is appropriate and inappropriate to say. That being said, I think we can agree that a conference setting is different than a workplace setting. A lot of people go to conferences for fun. Mix alcohol in with that and you are going to have a party. A party with alcohol can lead to stuff like what happened - jokes/comments being said that might offend people. Don't like the jokes or comments? Leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay there. I've been in those kinds of situations and guess what, I just get up and leave.

NateDad 14y ago

Let me sum up: How to get banned from PyCon: 1. Get drunk 2. Heckle a female presenter during a public presentation 3. Light up a pipe full of weed in the middle of the audience The rest of the article is irrelevant.

olgeni 14y ago
At least the guy didn't wear a Rails T-shirt...

theevocater 14y ago

So wait, this guy was smoking some weed (I assume) in the middle of a con and got banned. Why is this even questioned? Whether you agree with smoking weed or not, he committed a crime during a PyCon event.

toki5 14y ago
Nobody's questioning it. I'm not sure where that impression came from.
- theevocater 14y ago
  Just, why is everyone focusing on the smokescreen of he said/she said? Who cares! He broke a federal law!
- haven 14y ago
  I'm questioning it. The behavior in question seems alcohol-spawned. If alcohol is tolerated it seems bizarre to treat cannabis draconianly. If cannabis use is legal in the state, there is no prosecutable crime. Federal cannabis drug law is not enforced against cannabis users, only those who sell it and thereby more directly touch on interstate commerce. If breaking unenforced federal law is ban-able behavior, then better ban everyone. I think the unfortunate thing is that we all break federal law every day. (Most of us at least violate the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Ever made a GET request potentially in violation of an API's ToS?) Scary thing is, the feds actually prosecute under the CFAA.
  - theevocater 14y ago
    see http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inaprop...
salsakran 14y ago
Smoking weed is not a crime in CA, which is where PyCon was held this year.

jacobian 14y ago

FYI, here's PyCon's official statement on this incident: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inaprop.... I think it may answer some of the questions people have here; if you have additional questions please email me (jacob@jacobian.org) and I'll do my best to answer 'em.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

haven 14y ago

I absolutely understand not tolerating sexism or other bigotry, but a three year ban for cannabis use seems excessive. Ask him to take it outside?

cpeterso 14y ago
If cannabis use is illegal where the conference is held, the conference organizers might be responsible for attendees' smoking.

Smudge 14y ago

> I realize a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and in this case that line was chosen at me. When you're the only one to cross a particular line among many other people, don't be surprised when you get called out. The lines may be fuzzy, sure, or it might be a pretty clear-cut case (such as, smoking weed in a crowded audience during a tech talk), but regardless you should try to have an idea of how your actions might affect those around you. As a thought exercise, ask yourself if it would be okay for everyone to be doing what you are currently doing. Say, heckling the presenter, or using illicit substances, or even just talking to the person next to you. If an audience full of people heckling, smoking up, or chattering to each other would be counter-productive to the presenter's ability to present and/or an individual's enjoyment of the event, maybe you should consider not doing it yourself.

rachbelaid 14y ago

For being in the room, I have to admit that I have been shocked by the words. Not because it was a tech conference or the code of conduct but because but it's NOT A WAY of speaking anywhere and specially in public with or without presence of woman. Maybe I m too old school coming from the old continent anyway... I appreciate the honesty of his post and to admit his fault publicly. But I guess that having somebody banned many years will make think some peoples for the next pycon about how to behave in public. Maybe I shouldn't but a part of myself still feel sorry for him. Something I learned from professional event, if you don't handle well the booze then watch out your drinking to avoid of being a fool. I hope that he won't move to ruby before 2015.

teilo 14y ago

Gee, who knew that smoking illegal drugs at a conference would get you banned?