3 ms·

No sorry you're wrong, he responded to me saying 'if it works' with "It doesn't.", and also said "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't"

by analog 14y ago

dalke 14y ago
"It" refers to the part of alt.med which isn't part of med. That's the part that makes it "alt." At least, that's how I interpret it. The full context is: analog: "Paleo diet has worked, and also alt medicine", followed by Nursie: "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't!" The immediate context for 'it' is homeopathy, but I think, based on Nursie's other statements, that it should apply to all of alt.med. It doesn't apply to (to coin an abbreviation), "std.med", because it seems that Nursie finds convincing evidence that std.med does work. So the question to you is, what puts the "alt." in "alt.med"? If practice X is part of "alt.med" and is part of "std.med" then is how is X "alt"? It's possible that something started as alt.med and became part of std.med, but the practices listed on the ACS page have been part of std.med since pretty much since the dawn of evidence-based medicine, so it's not like std.med recently took those parts from alt.med. Therefore, you should interpret those quote of Nursie to mean: "[The part of alt.med which is specific to alt.med] doesn't [work]" and "I don't understand how [the alt. part of alt.med] works because [the alt. part of alt.med] doesn't [have any demonstrated effectiveness]".
- analog 14y ago
  One of the examples cited by the ACS is the use of prayer. Apparently this has been shown to be effective in some cases. The use of prayer is definitely part of alt med, and has been shown to work, therefore Nursie is incorrect when he says "alt med does not work".
  - dalke 14y ago
    No, prayer has not been shown to work. Rather, what do you mean by "work"? If people who pray feel more relaxed, then yes, it works for some people. So does meditation. So does reading a book, or watching a movie. Or playing cards, or talking with friends. If by "effective" you mean that people who pray have a higher longevity, higher rate of being cured, etc. then no, it doesn't work. This type of prayer is usually called intercessory prayer. Take for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567 . > Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. ... > CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications. Take for another example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19370557 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19370557 . > OBJECTIVES: To review the effects of intercessory prayer as an additional intervention for people with health problems already receiving routine health care. > AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care.
    - analog 14y ago
      Reduced stress is an important quality of life factor. It has been shown to provide this, therefore it works. "Spiritual well-being and coping. An analysis of 43 studies on people with advanced cancer noted that those who reported spiritual well-being were able to cope more effectively with terminal illnesses and find meaning in their experience. Major themes of spiritual well-being included self-awareness, coping with stress, connectedness with others, faith, empowerment, confidence, and the ability to live with meaning and hope." http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/spirituality-and-prayer http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/com...
      - dalke 14y ago
        Palliative care, which is what we are talking about now, is different than treating a disease. Standard medicine is well aware that tending to the emotional needs of the patients, including providing an on-call chaplain at some hospitals, helps make some patients feel better. Hospital chaplains have been around for a long time, and are not specific to alt.med, nor did the practice of providing access to religious support derive from alt.med. That said, it's interesting that the paragraph you quoted doesn't mention the word "prayer" at all. It refers to "spiritual well-being." Earlier in that page it pointed out that spirituality "is often expressed through religion and/or prayer"", but it doesn't say that it's the prayer which leads to any change. More specifically, it also says that "Meditation, twelve-step work (as practiced in Alcoholics Anonymous and similar groups), and seeking meaning in life all involve spirituality. Even simple practices such as silent observation, listening, or gratitude can become part of an open-ended spirituality that can infuse everyday life. Some people express their spirituality by spending time with nature, doing creative work, or serving others." It notably doesn't say (as you suggest) that prayer is an effective method to reduce stress, nor does it say that prayer is any more effective than 'spending time with nature' or 'doing creative work.' (To that list I'll add 'talking with a counselor.') So I don't understand your point. That page doesn't show that prayer "works", except perhaps as pallative treatment for those who already believe that prayer is effective. But then that's not very surprising, is it? And other forms of palliative care would also be effective. Perhaps even more effective? You must certainly acknowledge that "spiritual well-being" as given on that page is a rather broad term. Telling a patient to spend time relaxing in the mountains, as an example of spending time with nature, is not specific to alt.med. Indeed, a century ago, going to a spa in the countryside, where one could get away from the stresses of life was the common treatment for well-off people with tuberculosis, 'consumption', and other hard-to-cure diseases. So it's not like these suggestions are foreign or even recent to standard medicine. (Though once we figured out how to cure tuberculosis, this treatment for tuberculosis disappeared. That's why palliative care is different than treatment.) Also, don't you find the circular reasoning rather odd? As you quoted, "those who reported spiritual well-being were able to cope more effectively with terminal illnesses and find meaning in their experience", but as I quoted in the second paragraph, "seeking meaning in life [involves] spirituality." In a rather direct sense it says that those who seek meaning are more able to find meaning in their experience. Should anyone be surprised about that? I also think the idea that one should "find meaning in their experience" is a biased term. What meaning is there in going through cancer treatment? Other than the obvious - a combination of genetic and environmental factors, plus random chance lead to having cancer, and it's pain in the ass to get cancer treatments - why should anyone seek a deeper meaning? Of course, if you think the universe is constructed around you, perhaps because there's a God or universal spirit who intercedes on your behalf and 'works in mysterious ways', then perhaps thought, prayer, and reflection might help revel that hidden meaning, or perhaps help you accept that it's all for the best. But then it's rather biased metric, because those who don't think there is meaning to cancer will also tend be those who don't have a religious or spiritual faith.
Nursie 14y ago
Just to clarify - my assertion is that CAM doesn't work because if it works, and we have evidence to show that it works, it's not CAM it's part of the body of evidence-based medicine. If we don't have scientific evidence that something works then pretty much by definition we can't say it works because we don't have the proof. It's sort-of tautological. The other comment "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't" was specifically in reference to Homeopathy, which has been shown over and over again to be no better than placebo (i.e. doesn't work). The example was to show that there's no point in investigating how something works, and it's silly to chastise people for not understanding how something works, unless we can first show that something works and that there is even something to investigate. Apply this to paleo - I have no reason to suspect it works or not. Before investigating this miraculous diet, lets do a proper study to see if it actually is of benefit to the general population, or just to a subset, or if actually the benefits reported are by a tiny number of self-selected people and not really significant at all. When we actually know (rather than suspect from anecdote) that it does something, then is the time to look at how.

No sorry you're wrong, he responded to me saying 'if it works' with "It doesn't.", and also said "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't"

by analog 14y ago

No sorry you're wrong, he responded to me saying 'if it works' with "It doesn't.", and also said "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't"

dalke 14y ago

"It" refers to the part of alt.med which isn't part of med. That's the part that makes it "alt." At least, that's how I interpret it. The full context is: analog: "Paleo diet has worked, and also alt medicine", followed by Nursie: "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't!" The immediate context for 'it' is homeopathy, but I think, based on Nursie's other statements, that it should apply to all of alt.med. It doesn't apply to (to coin an abbreviation), "std.med", because it seems that Nursie finds convincing evidence that std.med does work. So the question to you is, what puts the "alt." in "alt.med"? If practice X is part of "alt.med" and is part of "std.med" then is how is X "alt"? It's possible that something started as alt.med and became part of std.med, but the practices listed on the ACS page have been part of std.med since pretty much since the dawn of evidence-based medicine, so it's not like std.med recently took those parts from alt.med. Therefore, you should interpret those quote of Nursie to mean: "[The part of alt.med which is specific to alt.med] doesn't [work]" and "I don't understand how [the alt. part of alt.med] works because [the alt. part of alt.med] doesn't [have any demonstrated effectiveness]".

analog 14y ago
One of the examples cited by the ACS is the use of prayer. Apparently this has been shown to be effective in some cases. The use of prayer is definitely part of alt med, and has been shown to work, therefore Nursie is incorrect when he says "alt med does not work".
- dalke 14y ago
  No, prayer has not been shown to work. Rather, what do you mean by "work"? If people who pray feel more relaxed, then yes, it works for some people. So does meditation. So does reading a book, or watching a movie. Or playing cards, or talking with friends. If by "effective" you mean that people who pray have a higher longevity, higher rate of being cured, etc. then no, it doesn't work. This type of prayer is usually called intercessory prayer. Take for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567 . > Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. ... > CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications. Take for another example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19370557 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19370557 . > OBJECTIVES: To review the effects of intercessory prayer as an additional intervention for people with health problems already receiving routine health care. > AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care.
  - analog 14y ago
    Reduced stress is an important quality of life factor. It has been shown to provide this, therefore it works. "Spiritual well-being and coping. An analysis of 43 studies on people with advanced cancer noted that those who reported spiritual well-being were able to cope more effectively with terminal illnesses and find meaning in their experience. Major themes of spiritual well-being included self-awareness, coping with stress, connectedness with others, faith, empowerment, confidence, and the ability to live with meaning and hope." http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/spirituality-and-prayer http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/com...
    - dalke 14y ago
      Palliative care, which is what we are talking about now, is different than treating a disease. Standard medicine is well aware that tending to the emotional needs of the patients, including providing an on-call chaplain at some hospitals, helps make some patients feel better. Hospital chaplains have been around for a long time, and are not specific to alt.med, nor did the practice of providing access to religious support derive from alt.med. That said, it's interesting that the paragraph you quoted doesn't mention the word "prayer" at all. It refers to "spiritual well-being." Earlier in that page it pointed out that spirituality "is often expressed through religion and/or prayer"", but it doesn't say that it's the prayer which leads to any change. More specifically, it also says that "Meditation, twelve-step work (as practiced in Alcoholics Anonymous and similar groups), and seeking meaning in life all involve spirituality. Even simple practices such as silent observation, listening, or gratitude can become part of an open-ended spirituality that can infuse everyday life. Some people express their spirituality by spending time with nature, doing creative work, or serving others." It notably doesn't say (as you suggest) that prayer is an effective method to reduce stress, nor does it say that prayer is any more effective than 'spending time with nature' or 'doing creative work.' (To that list I'll add 'talking with a counselor.') So I don't understand your point. That page doesn't show that prayer "works", except perhaps as pallative treatment for those who already believe that prayer is effective. But then that's not very surprising, is it? And other forms of palliative care would also be effective. Perhaps even more effective? You must certainly acknowledge that "spiritual well-being" as given on that page is a rather broad term. Telling a patient to spend time relaxing in the mountains, as an example of spending time with nature, is not specific to alt.med. Indeed, a century ago, going to a spa in the countryside, where one could get away from the stresses of life was the common treatment for well-off people with tuberculosis, 'consumption', and other hard-to-cure diseases. So it's not like these suggestions are foreign or even recent to standard medicine. (Though once we figured out how to cure tuberculosis, this treatment for tuberculosis disappeared. That's why palliative care is different than treatment.) Also, don't you find the circular reasoning rather odd? As you quoted, "those who reported spiritual well-being were able to cope more effectively with terminal illnesses and find meaning in their experience", but as I quoted in the second paragraph, "seeking meaning in life [involves] spirituality." In a rather direct sense it says that those who seek meaning are more able to find meaning in their experience. Should anyone be surprised about that? I also think the idea that one should "find meaning in their experience" is a biased term. What meaning is there in going through cancer treatment? Other than the obvious - a combination of genetic and environmental factors, plus random chance lead to having cancer, and it's pain in the ass to get cancer treatments - why should anyone seek a deeper meaning? Of course, if you think the universe is constructed around you, perhaps because there's a God or universal spirit who intercedes on your behalf and 'works in mysterious ways', then perhaps thought, prayer, and reflection might help revel that hidden meaning, or perhaps help you accept that it's all for the best. But then it's rather biased metric, because those who don't think there is meaning to cancer will also tend be those who don't have a religious or spiritual faith.

Nursie 14y ago

Just to clarify - my assertion is that CAM doesn't work because if it works, and we have evidence to show that it works, it's not CAM it's part of the body of evidence-based medicine. If we don't have scientific evidence that something works then pretty much by definition we can't say it works because we don't have the proof. It's sort-of tautological. The other comment "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't" was specifically in reference to Homeopathy, which has been shown over and over again to be no better than placebo (i.e. doesn't work). The example was to show that there's no point in investigating how something works, and it's silly to chastise people for not understanding how something works, unless we can first show that something works and that there is even something to investigate. Apply this to paleo - I have no reason to suspect it works or not. Before investigating this miraculous diet, lets do a proper study to see if it actually is of benefit to the general population, or just to a subset, or if actually the benefits reported are by a tiny number of self-selected people and not really significant at all. When we actually know (rather than suspect from anecdote) that it does something, then is the time to look at how.