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Never really thought about food in this way before - great article. Which reminds me. Don't you find it funny how some the most important things to have occurr

Never really thought about food in this way before - great article. Which reminds me. Don't you find it funny how some the most important things to have occurred in history came from the most random places, times and humble beginnings? I find the fact that such little, seemingly innocuous, random events go on to have such an enormous impact upon billions of people centuries into the future absolutely fascinating. For example have you ever wondered what effectively helped end the need for slavery and in turn paved the way for women's rights? The steam engine. Weren't expecting that now then were you? History is random like that.

akiselev 14y ago
Is it really random or just a failure of imagination? Real world systems are horribly complex and beautifully intricate. Sure the evolution of grain pre-agricultural society was random but I'd bet that if you accounted for all the variables (don't know if you even could), then the reason for "why things are" would be pretty clear. Also, citation on the steam engine bit? Slavery was illegal in much of the world by the time we developed machines to automate picking of cotton or harvesting other crops, which is where (I believe) most slave labor was used. (afaik inventions like the cotton gin did little to alleviate the demand for slaves).
- objclxt 14y ago
  Indeed, the (London) Science Museum suggests that campaigners at the time thought steam might inhibit slavery, but there's no evidence to suggest that actually happened. http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/energyhall/page88.asp http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/energyhall/page88.as... And inventions like the cotton gin may have increased demand for slaves, because they enabled more cotton to be grown.
  - akiselev 14y ago
    Yeah I did a bit more research. Looks like the cotton gin did greatly increase demand for slaves but that's not really related to steam engines. Combined with the fact that one of the primary applications of the steam engine was faster transportation of goods in the North (South had little in the way of industrialization until post Civil War), I'm almost certain that the steam engine did not decrease the need for slaves. Once the North began expanding European trade routes post War of 1812 and the entire continent started demanding Southern US cotton, it was an avalanche (that did not get tempered by the ban on international slave trading).
  - VLM 14y ago
    No they enabled more cotton to be processed not grown. Maybe you're trying to say the labor bottleneck became harvesting instead of processing? Amazingly it took until 1950 for mechanized harvesting to take over. Kinda delicate! Processing is simpler and that was figured out and deployed widely around 1800. Processing cotton means pulling the seeds out. Otherwise your tee shirts would sprout if you get sweaty. Well not seriously, more like the spinners and looms would jam. Old days: hand pick cotton, hand process. 1800-1950: hand pick cotton, run thru a steam powered Whitney (dudes last name) gin to process 1950-today: Rust (dudes last name) cotton picker, electric motor powered (well, mostly) Whitney cotton gin. Not much use for human hands anymore. Now indirectly OP was kinda correct in that "the world" could tolerate plantation like treatment of poor blacks up to 1950 or so as long as it stayed away from "the world". But once all those poor blacks were unemployed and moved out into the world in factories and stuff, you can't ignore it as easily. So yeah mechanization (in the 1950s not steam era) led directly to blacks sitting on city busses goin' to factories instead of picking cotton on the neo-plantation and not feeling that sitting in the back of the bus was cool anymore, which led directly to civil rights protests and indirectly to the womens movement and all that. Ops details were all wrong but general message was completely correct. The gin resulted in lots of black people picking cotton where they got abused and pretty much no one saw or cared, the Rust picker (and WWII) resulted in them being unemployed and moving to factory jobs very much in the public eye, where the abuse became unignorable.
pilsetnieks 14y ago
On the other hand, you should consider how steam engine development was prevented in Ancient Greece because of the abundance of slaves. Imagine the world we'd be living in if that didn't happen.
- meric 14y ago
  The Industrial Revolution didn't happen in China in the 19th century because of the abundance of cheap labor... http://www.voxeu.org/article/why-china-missed-industrial-revolution http://www.voxeu.org/article/why-china-missed-industrial-rev... "Whereas entrepreneurs in Europe were very eager to develop new technologies that increased labour productivity via the capital-labour ratio, Chinese businesses barely had any incentive to do so. "
- VLM 14y ago
  Not much worth digging up in flooded mines in Greece. On the other hand England had intense demand for coal and tin and such long before they had steam engines. Early steam engines were not terribly powerful and not terribly efficient compared to a miner water bucket brigade, but they were incredibly volume efficient "down hole" and if you're a mining company your coal is "free" unlike trying to use draft horses which require food and more people than the steamie required. Volume efficiency is important before dynamite theres no really easy way to make holes (and even after dynamite, that stuff isn't cheap, Nobel got his prize money selling it you know) so making all mine holes twice as big to hold a bucket brigade isn't going to happen.
arethuza 14y ago
I've just finished reading William Hague's excellent biography of William Wilberforce and I don't think there is a single mention of "steam engine" in the entire book. These guys fought slavery because they knew it to be profoundly immoral.
nonamegiven 14y ago
Maybe because our niche is intelligence, and we're able to notice effect and possibility.
jamesrcole 14y ago
> Don't you find it funny how some the most important things to have occurred in history came from the most random places, times and humble beginnings? There seems to be a bias in human cognition that expects like to come from like. So if something is significant we feel that it must have originated from something... not insignificant seeming. Once you recognise the bias it's surprising how often it comes up.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
ErikAugust 14y ago
It springs from survival. Like most things.

akiselev 14y ago

Is it really random or just a failure of imagination? Real world systems are horribly complex and beautifully intricate. Sure the evolution of grain pre-agricultural society was random but I'd bet that if you accounted for all the variables (don't know if you even could), then the reason for "why things are" would be pretty clear. Also, citation on the steam engine bit? Slavery was illegal in much of the world by the time we developed machines to automate picking of cotton or harvesting other crops, which is where (I believe) most slave labor was used. (afaik inventions like the cotton gin did little to alleviate the demand for slaves).

objclxt 14y ago
Indeed, the (London) Science Museum suggests that campaigners at the time thought steam might inhibit slavery, but there's no evidence to suggest that actually happened. http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/energyhall/page88.asp http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/energyhall/page88.as... And inventions like the cotton gin may have increased demand for slaves, because they enabled more cotton to be grown.
- akiselev 14y ago
  Yeah I did a bit more research. Looks like the cotton gin did greatly increase demand for slaves but that's not really related to steam engines. Combined with the fact that one of the primary applications of the steam engine was faster transportation of goods in the North (South had little in the way of industrialization until post Civil War), I'm almost certain that the steam engine did not decrease the need for slaves. Once the North began expanding European trade routes post War of 1812 and the entire continent started demanding Southern US cotton, it was an avalanche (that did not get tempered by the ban on international slave trading).
- VLM 14y ago
  No they enabled more cotton to be processed not grown. Maybe you're trying to say the labor bottleneck became harvesting instead of processing? Amazingly it took until 1950 for mechanized harvesting to take over. Kinda delicate! Processing is simpler and that was figured out and deployed widely around 1800. Processing cotton means pulling the seeds out. Otherwise your tee shirts would sprout if you get sweaty. Well not seriously, more like the spinners and looms would jam. Old days: hand pick cotton, hand process. 1800-1950: hand pick cotton, run thru a steam powered Whitney (dudes last name) gin to process 1950-today: Rust (dudes last name) cotton picker, electric motor powered (well, mostly) Whitney cotton gin. Not much use for human hands anymore. Now indirectly OP was kinda correct in that "the world" could tolerate plantation like treatment of poor blacks up to 1950 or so as long as it stayed away from "the world". But once all those poor blacks were unemployed and moved out into the world in factories and stuff, you can't ignore it as easily. So yeah mechanization (in the 1950s not steam era) led directly to blacks sitting on city busses goin' to factories instead of picking cotton on the neo-plantation and not feeling that sitting in the back of the bus was cool anymore, which led directly to civil rights protests and indirectly to the womens movement and all that. Ops details were all wrong but general message was completely correct. The gin resulted in lots of black people picking cotton where they got abused and pretty much no one saw or cared, the Rust picker (and WWII) resulted in them being unemployed and moving to factory jobs very much in the public eye, where the abuse became unignorable.

pilsetnieks 14y ago

On the other hand, you should consider how steam engine development was prevented in Ancient Greece because of the abundance of slaves. Imagine the world we'd be living in if that didn't happen.

meric 14y ago
The Industrial Revolution didn't happen in China in the 19th century because of the abundance of cheap labor... http://www.voxeu.org/article/why-china-missed-industrial-revolution http://www.voxeu.org/article/why-china-missed-industrial-rev... "Whereas entrepreneurs in Europe were very eager to develop new technologies that increased labour productivity via the capital-labour ratio, Chinese businesses barely had any incentive to do so. "
VLM 14y ago
Not much worth digging up in flooded mines in Greece. On the other hand England had intense demand for coal and tin and such long before they had steam engines. Early steam engines were not terribly powerful and not terribly efficient compared to a miner water bucket brigade, but they were incredibly volume efficient "down hole" and if you're a mining company your coal is "free" unlike trying to use draft horses which require food and more people than the steamie required. Volume efficiency is important before dynamite theres no really easy way to make holes (and even after dynamite, that stuff isn't cheap, Nobel got his prize money selling it you know) so making all mine holes twice as big to hold a bucket brigade isn't going to happen.

arethuza 14y ago

I've just finished reading William Hague's excellent biography of William Wilberforce and I don't think there is a single mention of "steam engine" in the entire book. These guys fought slavery because they knew it to be profoundly immoral.

nonamegiven 14y ago

Maybe because our niche is intelligence, and we're able to notice effect and possibility.

jamesrcole 14y ago

> Don't you find it funny how some the most important things to have occurred in history came from the most random places, times and humble beginnings? There seems to be a bias in human cognition that expects like to come from like. So if something is significant we feel that it must have originated from something... not insignificant seeming. Once you recognise the bias it's surprising how often it comes up.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

ErikAugust 14y ago

It springs from survival. Like most things.