5 ms·

Is this even legal ? In Switzerland, I don't think an employer can claim ownership of a piece of work that was produced on the employee spare time (and on his o

by jre 14y ago

Is this even legal ? In Switzerland, I don't think an employer can claim ownership of a piece of work that was produced on the employee spare time (and on his own computer and so on).

dspillett 14y ago
By my understanding it certainly isn't legally enforceable in the UK. It isn't actually illegal to have such a clause in the contract, but if it were to come to court it would be thrown out as an unreasonable clause. The problem from the employee's point of view though is that it may have to come to court before the employer will back down and there are costs in terms of money, time, and relationships associated with that especially if the company goes for the appeal cycle afterwards. Most individuals can't afford the time or cost of such a case (though costs are likely to be recovered from the company eventually, you need to find the funds up front) if it comes to that, and the software industry can be fairly judgemental and nepotistic so it'll be hard work getting a new job (once life becomes unpleasant at the old one due to the court case) now you have a reputation for being difficult. These considerations are why individuals back down quickly, as the assume the conversation will go: Company: We own that. Individual: No you don't. Company: Contract says so. Individual: You can't enforce that. Company: We can try. Wanna fight? Individual: Er, no. Here, take it. Companies know the clause is not legally enforceable, but they have it in there because they know it generally doesn't have to be as most people will not argue as far as the legal status of the clause being relevant (in fact most people don't even know that it isn't legally enforceable). This is particularly the case for younger people or those otherwise near the start of their career. Most non-compete clauses are in a similar legal position.
etfb 14y ago
In Australia, I worked for a company that had what amounted to a "we own all your brainz" clause in their contract. I queried it, and they modified it: they owned anything I produced using their hardware, during paid time (excluding lunch breaks) or using knowledge I'd gained directly from working for them. Everything else, even stuff I did in the lunchroom using my laptop, was mine. The boss's son apparently agreed with me that the original clause was silly and may have been instrumental in getting his Dad to change it; or maybe the boss was just a reasonable guy. Actually, I think the latter is true. They were a good mob, and I was sad to leave.
- qw 14y ago
  > or using knowledge I'd gained directly from working for them I wouldn't be comfortable with that. If you have gained knowledge on Redis, you should be able to use Redis in a personal project. It would be different if you had developed a super secret ranking algorithm that you later re-implemented in another project.
  - etfb 14y ago
    They made it clear (I don't recall the wording) that knowledge I gained for myself while working -- from co-workers, from research done as a necessary part of solving problems, etc -- wasn't the issue; it was specifically knowledge about the business and the topic it covers, which was related to the medical field, rather than knowledge of computer-specific issues. So: software projects relying on my knowledge of XSLT gleaned from working there: fine, not a problem; software projects to prescribe warfarin safely: not so fine. This was a good balance, and I had no trouble with it.

by jre 14y ago

Is this even legal ? In Switzerland, I don't think an employer can claim ownership of a piece of work that was produced on the employee spare time (and on his own computer and so on).

dspillett 14y ago

By my understanding it certainly isn't legally enforceable in the UK. It isn't actually illegal to have such a clause in the contract, but if it were to come to court it would be thrown out as an unreasonable clause. The problem from the employee's point of view though is that it may have to come to court before the employer will back down and there are costs in terms of money, time, and relationships associated with that especially if the company goes for the appeal cycle afterwards. Most individuals can't afford the time or cost of such a case (though costs are likely to be recovered from the company eventually, you need to find the funds up front) if it comes to that, and the software industry can be fairly judgemental and nepotistic so it'll be hard work getting a new job (once life becomes unpleasant at the old one due to the court case) now you have a reputation for being difficult. These considerations are why individuals back down quickly, as the assume the conversation will go: Company: We own that. Individual: No you don't. Company: Contract says so. Individual: You can't enforce that. Company: We can try. Wanna fight? Individual: Er, no. Here, take it. Companies know the clause is not legally enforceable, but they have it in there because they know it generally doesn't have to be as most people will not argue as far as the legal status of the clause being relevant (in fact most people don't even know that it isn't legally enforceable). This is particularly the case for younger people or those otherwise near the start of their career. Most non-compete clauses are in a similar legal position.

etfb 14y ago

In Australia, I worked for a company that had what amounted to a "we own all your brainz" clause in their contract. I queried it, and they modified it: they owned anything I produced using their hardware, during paid time (excluding lunch breaks) or using knowledge I'd gained directly from working for them. Everything else, even stuff I did in the lunchroom using my laptop, was mine. The boss's son apparently agreed with me that the original clause was silly and may have been instrumental in getting his Dad to change it; or maybe the boss was just a reasonable guy. Actually, I think the latter is true. They were a good mob, and I was sad to leave.

qw 14y ago
> or using knowledge I'd gained directly from working for them I wouldn't be comfortable with that. If you have gained knowledge on Redis, you should be able to use Redis in a personal project. It would be different if you had developed a super secret ranking algorithm that you later re-implemented in another project.
- etfb 14y ago
  They made it clear (I don't recall the wording) that knowledge I gained for myself while working -- from co-workers, from research done as a necessary part of solving problems, etc -- wasn't the issue; it was specifically knowledge about the business and the topic it covers, which was related to the medical field, rather than knowledge of computer-specific issues. So: software projects relying on my knowledge of XSLT gleaned from working there: fine, not a problem; software projects to prescribe warfarin safely: not so fine. This was a good balance, and I had no trouble with it.