10 ms·

Show HN: Announcing 10x Management

80 points by altay 14y ago

hollerith 14y ago
Does 10x take 10% of whatever the client makes?
- objclxt 14y ago
  10% would be on the low side for either a recruitment agency or, to run with the Ari Gold analogy, a talent agent. 15% would be more realistic, although I see recruiters trying to charge considerably more. Unscrupulous recruiters often will try to hide how much their cut is from their freelancers.
  - waterlesscloud 14y ago
    Aside- Hollywood agents are capped at 10%, Hollywood managers typically are more like 15%. Agents are "forbidden" by California law to produce projects, though that line can be awfully blurry. Managers can't, in theory, directly negotiate contracts. In theory. A lot of talent ends up with both a manager and an agent, each with their own percentage. Toss in an attorney at 5+% and you can see how the Hollywood money really flows.
  - TamDenholm 14y ago
    Recruiters for contractors in the UK generally take 20%, i've caught agencies try to take more.
    - gadders 14y ago
      It's gradually getting managed down, I believe, due to Preferred Sipplier Lists etc.
    - TheAnimus 14y ago
      As more big firms opt for management comapnies such as ResourceSolutions, this is been driven firmly down. Often its below 3% for people who've been on site 18+ months. The worst thing about RS (guess which side I'm on!) is that they advise on rate reductions. As they are often working with your competitors too, they can effectively advise that a 10% hair cut is OK because OtherBank just did a n% cut.
  - hollerith 14y ago
    Recruitment agencies get paid by the employer. Hollywood talent agents in contrast, get paid by the talent. Do you we know which party pays 10x?
orangethirty 14y ago
Pop goes the bubble.
- milkshakes 14y ago
  Would you care to elaborate?
  - orangethirty 14y ago
    The reason artists have agents is so they can get work. Because there are more artists than paid work. Programmers are in such demand that one does not need for such thing. Thus, this kind of service popping up signals that there is so much frees money flowing around (the bubble) that people are looking for ways to grab a bunch and runaway. Let's be honest here. Aside from the ego stroking of having an agent, what value do these people provide?
    - ricardobeat 14y ago
      Under http://www.10xmanagement.com/#what_we_do http://www.10xmanagement.com/#what_we_do Contract negotiation, scheduling, planning, invoicing. Basically all the paperwork + customer relations, you just do the work. I don't know what their fee is, but if they do this right it could be worth it.
    - milkshakes 14y ago
      I have a friend, a Thiel fellow actually, who for personal reasons is no longer pursuing his project. He is extremely talented and creative, but, despite his credibility, ability and connections, he swears by these people because they take all the bullshit out of the equation and just let him focus on what he wants to do right now which is get paid the most money possible to work on the most interesting and intellectually stimulating projects he can. Why is that so offensive to you?
      - orangethirty 14y ago
        I'm not offended by this. At all. I'm happy your friend benefits from it.
TamDenholm 14y ago
I'd like to see this in the UK, i've always said one day i'd start that kind of agency. This is a great idea.
- hugorodgerbrown 14y ago
  It exists! We are building a community at YunoJuno that provides all the support of a large company, but for people who choose to be freelance. We're not quite as gung-ho as these guys - and we're not offering to manage your career - that's your business - but we do want to support talented freelancers in the creative (design, ux, dev) community. www.yunojuno.com (Oh, and we're not charging you anything - we charge the employer, fixed rate, no shenanigans.)
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - mietek 14y ago
    You're missing less web-centric dev skills. Some suggestions: Haskell, C, Erlang, OCaml, C++.
    - hugorodgerbrown 14y ago
      Yup - this is true. The "skills matrix" for developers is a real bone of contention - too many and it's confusing, too few and it's limiting. In reality, for now we are focussing on creative agencies, and they are web-focussed - we are not meeting with companies who have low-level perforamnce or control issues. It's about building web and mobile apps. For now ;-)
  - gadders 14y ago
    Is this just an umbrella company under other name?
gadders 14y ago
If this was such a good idea, why doesn't it exist for other professions? EG the very best lawyers, accountants etc? Is the supply more contrained for tech people? Also, freelance IT people typically work through several agents. What happens if you find a role yourself, not through these guys? Do you still have to pay them a cut?
- theorique 14y ago
  Lawyers and accountants tend to work for a firm rather than freelance project by project like actors and film professionals/entrepeneurs (e.g. lighting, sound, makeup, electrical, catering) will do. The same is true of some programmers as well, but I would guess more programmers (and architects, designers, project managers, tech leads, etc) do the freelance thing compared to other professionals.
  - gadders 14y ago
    I suppose. But my understanding was that this 10x company would find you permanent as well as contract/freelance roles.
- justinsb 14y ago
  I think there's a fallacy in there; just because something hasn't been done doesn't make it a bad idea. Otherwise we should just stay shivering in the metaphorical cave. But I think it's commonly accepted that there's a huge performance difference between a good programmer and a bad programmer. People disagree as to the ratio of course; I've heard between 3x and 100x. I don't believe that's as widely mentioned for lawyers or accountants. So technology talent seems like a great place for 10x to start.
jph 14y ago
I have direct personal experience with 10x and I highly recommend them. I found them to help me with a significant employment/management need. 10x focused on finding the best solution and provided ongoing contact and advice through the whole process. I don't get anything by recommending them. I do believe fully in their business and value.
- gadders 14y ago
  They helped you as an employer or an employee?
  - lucisferre 14y ago
    Yeah, a full story would better help to evaluate the value they provided you.
- pablasso 14y ago
  It would be better if you expand a little about your experience with them, this just sounds like common spam.
- jph 14y ago
  A few people here are asking for details: 10x helped me with a benefits/salary negotiation with one of my large clients. Michael Solomon at 10x talked with me about various kinds of research into salaries, benefits, alternative compensation, and the like. Michael was open to creative solutions, able to research comparison positions, and always aimed for a good solution. Overall I was entirely happy with his work, and he has a clear, solid, long-term vision for helping developers. As I wrote above, I don't get anything for recommended 10x. I just like to see good people get good work.
jtbigwoo 14y ago
Odd that there's not a lawyer among the listed leaders. They say they'll bring in lawyers "if necessary." Aren't most agencies for artists or athletes packed with lawyers? If I'm hiring you as my agent, I'd think that at least half your job would be the contract part of it.
- fecak 14y ago
  Most contracts for technologists are much less complex than contracts for artists/athletes. Actors/athletes might have incentives for performance, receipts, merch, etc that are very complex. Tech contracts are usually rates, duration, perhaps some liability, NDA and IP stuff, non-compete. Perm hire could include some stock option info as well, but you don't need a lawyer for most of this stuff unless someone is really trying to protect something.
executive 14y ago
Grant Cardone in the Cardone Zone
joonix 14y ago
Oh, no. This doesn't feel right at all. This is giving me entertainment720 vibes.
- DanBC 14y ago
  10x has 11 x's in the logo. So, it also has Spinal Tap vibes too.
johncampbelljr 14y ago
Of course there are already talent agents for contracts and have been for years--maybe not so much short-run freelancers but plenty of businesses place contractors for six-month+ terms. Most don't bill themselves as only for the 10xers--and for good reason--your supply of exceptional talent will quickly run out. Few 10xers get paid ten times of a 1Xer. (I bet you'd bill more with 50 1xers than 5 10Xers.) It could be that a boutique agency will get enough traction and recognition to draw enough 10xers to be crazy successful--it will be interesting to watch. But coming from the side of someone looking for good developers I'm all for a little innovation in the recruitment and employment space.
countessa 14y ago
"10x represents the best freelance programmers and designers" not to be too snooty, but couldn't they get one of their best design freelancers to give their site a bit of a makeover?
- checker 14y ago
  Some of the fonts are rendering strangely for me in Windows Chrome 25. The anti-aliasing is chunky. Not sure if it's some TrueType thing, it's been a while since I've had to work with such problems.
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    I think he was talking about Bootstrap. This is a good example of when it's not the best choice.
- brittohalloran 14y ago
  Our website is 10x worse than it should be
- xutopia 14y ago
  Or set encoding properly? The text of last quoted client has all kinds of escaping issues.
rglullis 14y ago
1) More important than deal flow, I could see myself working with something like that if it increased my hourly rate, and if it did so substantially. I am 100% positive that most of the jobs/projects I got into I left money on the table because I didn't want to put too much effort in the negotiation process and just wanted to work on interesting things. So it would be great if something like that managed to work as a market force to push things up. However, these guys would have to be completely transparent, pretty much like we see sport athletes getting their contracts disclosed, all of their "stars" would have each of their signed projects on a billboard, complete with stats and metrics of performance. If it increased my rate by 20%, I wouldn't do it. Promise me that I would be able to live in New York and make $300-$400k/year without having to get into finance, and I could give them 10-20% of it easily. 2) Apologies in advance for my blatant stereotyping, but I couldn't help noticing that most if not all names of the guys leading this are Jewish. Coupled with the "Here's your Ari Gold" comment it makes me wonder, why is this such a Jewish-dominated field?
- fecak 14y ago
  Transparency is critical in all things related to recruiting (and tech talent management if it is to become a 'thing'). Most of the problems that arise are due to a lack of transparency and the recruiter's incentives. You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Not sure what to make on your assumptions of the guys leading this and their possible religious background, but since you went there - the Ari Gold reference was one I made in a similar article about agents being a possibility in tech, and I chose Ari Gold not due to any religious concepts (for transparency, I'm not Jewish) but because that his style as an agent is what everyone seems to want and he is probably the most known agent (even though fictional) in the world. I could have picked Jerry Maguire, who would be a close second I'd think. I'd have mentioned Drew Rosenhaus, but tech folks seem more knowledgeable about TV than sports.
  - r00fus 14y ago
    > You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Because nothing is free. Adding an extra layer to the sales process costs more than 20% of my time. I can't speak for rglullis, but I'd only accept 20% it if I was incapable of finding additional clients.
brittohalloran 14y ago
This 10x elitism is total bull. I'm sure the top programmers are 10x better than the worst, but there's a vast spectrum in between. The 10x notion implies that there's the worst, the good, the better, then a massive chasm, the up on the mountaintop there are "the 10xers". I'm not buying it.
localhost3000 14y ago
Please stop with the '10x' bullshit. Using this term makes you sound like immature children.
meritt 14y ago
I sense a lot of negativity here. Engineers are not good at dealing with customers. They deal with the customers so engineers don't have to. They have people skills. They are good at dealing with people! Can't you guys understand that?
- danielpal 14y ago
  This is absolutely not true at all. This is the same non-sense girls are taught growing up that they are not "good" at engineering. My experience has been, once engineers start interacting with customers they like it and they are good at it. Some aren't but is not the norm.
  - fecak 14y ago
    Easy now. That was a movie line from Office Space.
- dsugarman 14y ago
  I see what you did there.. and I like it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog
fecak 14y ago
I laid out something similar here on HN last summer and Atlay (of 10x) was one of the first to comment. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4555165 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4555165) As a longtime tech recruiter, what I find most valuable about the model is that it is much more geared towards helping tech pros focus on what they do best (code) and not have to worry about what they tend to do worst (handle the business side of their work, negotiate, etc.). I haven't switched my business into an agency model at this point as I think there are still a few kinks to be worked out. Here is some recruiter-speak (what we are trained to say) that might make sense to some of the contractors out there or at least sound familiar. If you are working with a recruiter and you ask for $125/hr, and you feel that is a very fair market rate for the work you will be doing, and the recruiter is able to get the client to pay say $130/hr, chances are you won't care because you are getting your 125 and the recruiter is making almost nothing. So let's now say that the recruiter is an excellent negotiator and gets $150 - should you (as the coder) get more because the recruiter was able to negotiate a higher rate? At what point should the recruiter be rewarded for doing a good job negotiating? If the recruiter is getting $250 total and you are only at $125, surely you will feel slighted - but if $125 is the market rate for that skill, should the recruiter not be rewarded for the ability to negotiate and get a higher rate? I could argue both sides of this. One way to alleviate part of this problem is to essentially split the difference. If you come to me asking for 125, let's say my standard cut is 10% (which is low, but this is just an example) - and anything I get above that 10% we split. So at 137.5, you are at 125 and I'm at 12.5 (10%). If I get the client up to 150, I get my 12.50 (10% of your 125) + 1/2 of the additional 12.50 (150-137.5) for a total of 18.75, while you get 131.25. This way the recruiter is rewarded for getting a higher rate, and the coder doesn't feel like a victim. Unfortunately, most recruiters won't reveal the bill rate (paid by the company) to the coder or the coder's rate to the company, so all sides are in the dark except the middleman. Almost all recruiting models are quite imperfect and have some really disturbing incentives for the recruiters (http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/ http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/). Transparency between all parties is something I am offering my candidates so they can use their best judgment as to whether my advice is clouded by a higher fee with one company over another. Transparency is the real key to solving many of the problems in the industry. The agent model seems to be the right track, and hopefully we'll get it right some day.
nlh 14y ago
Something isn't sitting right with me about this. Let me explore (my gut may be wrong here)... I agree that it's important for freelance engineers and designers to have some business help. Being a good "creator" doesn't necessarily mean you're good at negotiations, and while its an important skill, there is something nice about being able to focus on doing the work (and doing a good job) vs having to find the clients, negotiate the deals, handle payment, etc. That can be an unwelcome distraction for some people who aren't naturally good at it. But that's why design/development studios exist. Even in a small shop - there's a guy who specs the project, a guy who negotiates the deal, a designer, and a developer (yes, there's often overlap in those roles). You pay a premium for the full-service of those distinct roles. I think what's bothering me here is that these guys are perpetuating the notion that, literally, hiring a "celebrity"/"rock star" engineer/designer ("10xer") is something that folks should be paying a huge premium for. And that if you are that rock star, that you're so awesome that you need talent management (who deserves 15%). The premium here isn't for a support staff to help manage the project - the premium here is to get that celebrity development talent. Not saying this is necessarily a bad thing - maybe it's an innovation that's much needed in the industry. But my gut is that they're spreading the celebrity-worship mentality of the entertainment industry to the software industry, and I'm not confident that's the right move. It works in the entertainment industry because the link is much clearer -- you put Vinny Chase in your movie, it's going to do better than if you put in a no-name actor (all else being equal). Does that same thing work in the software industry? Thoughts?
- wslh 14y ago
  I like the idea but not sure how much will the freelancer earn comparing with their current work. Saying it in a different way: if you already are a star developer you don't need them. As a consequence I see "star discovery" as a business instead of "star representation". They can discover stars outside the US or main US cities. I know people who already did that, but the stars then moved to the Google(s), Facebook(s).
- fecak 14y ago
  I think the disconnect on this is how one will define celebrity/rock star type developers. I'm sure that ideally they feel they will be the agent to some of the bigger names in the business, who certainly don't need an agent for finding work but might like someone to handle their stuff. Through my work running a Java users group for 13 years, when I reach out to big name speakers my reply comes from an assistant that handles that person's calendar and scheduling. This could be a service that someone who is speaking worldwide would pay for (as their employer pays for it if they are at Google). In reality, talent agent's in tech will probably be managing very good coders who are probably not big industry names - and that's ok. They could be very good at coding but not very good at making career choices, negotiating, and the like. The Vinny Chase reference seems to indicate that you feel that the quality of your engineers doesn't have an impact on the success of your software company. Is that accurate? I think that if you feel the quality of an engineer is not associated with the success of a product, at least to some degree, most of the people here would disagree.
andyakb 14y ago
Most people suck at negotiating, and in a field where so much value is provided, there is a lot of value that simply isn't captured by the employee. I think having a management company like this makes a lot of sense assuming that after your fee, you are able to make more than you otherwise would. As far as the website goes though, it needs a ton of work. They should basically take out their life story in the middle and use that for a press release and create a simplified about us page. Overall it really just seems like they threw everything on the page, and while nobody wants to leave anything out, having so much text is very distracting and takes away from your message
justinsb 14y ago
I really like the emphasis on quality of talent. In my experience, too many recruitment agencies (the incumbents) are heavily focused on volume and optimize around their own compensation structure. If 10x can stay focused only on genuine talent, giving the talent a steady flow of well-paying work from businesses that can't afford to have someone under-deliver, that seems like a win/win/win to me, and I'm sure they'll do well.
- fecak 14y ago
  The hardest part of this is turning people down. Everyone feels they are high talent (almost everyone) or top 10%, but obviously they can't all be right. The amount of people they will have to reject could be enough to give people a negative impression of them - of how they evaluate and rate talent, elitism, etc. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Tech pros love to hate how companies evaluate talent - tests, coding exercises, interviews, whiteboard work, Fermi problems. How they choose to evaluate talent, and whether they choose to tell some coders 'sorry, you aren't 10x material' will be very telling.
  - justinsb 14y ago
    Definitely agree - I don't think this aspect of 10x's focus will be easy. But that's what I'd be paying for as a 10x customer - that they've done the difficult job of telling people that are perfectly competent "thanks, but no thanks".
peteforde 14y ago
I'm a tech strategist with an agent that is not 10X, and I am a very happy guy. Ted Pearlman at Us Is Two (http://usistwo.com http://usistwo.com) was referred to me by a former business partner. He was scouring North America looking for someone with legitimate CTO instincts to advise a client on an ongoing basis. Their business (health and nutrition) aligned with my interests and their location (two minutes from my house) aligned with the stars. I met the client and they were nice, interesting people with a profitable business. It's been an exceptionally good relationship; fun and lucrative for them and me. Ted and I became friends and now we work together often. I'm effective at pitching what I do and selling consulting (I started and co-ran Unspace for 8 years) but it's not what I enjoy doing. However, the real reason I'm excited to work with him is that no matter how good I am at keeping my pipeline full, there's no way that it's better than being recommended by a third party who is paying a fee to find someone with my skills. Ted authored The Pudding Manifesto (http://puddingmanifesto.org/ http://puddingmanifesto.org/) and in my experience he puts his money where his mouth is. He sends an invoice up front and says, "don't pay this unless the person I introduce to you is as good as I say they are". You'll have to ask him what percentage of people end up paying. As for developers uncomfortable with comparisons to celebrity culture and folks that complain about average developers getting left behind... this really isn't about any of that, or at least it doesn't have to be. Ted exhausts huge amounts of energy making genuine connections between people, often at his own expense. He's a hustler with a heart of gold, and has his client's best interest in mind far more often than a lot of the folks HN-types are so eager to take investment money from. If you have any questions that I haven't answered, please feel free to ask. Moreover, I encourage you to set up a time to speak with Ted: http://usistwo.com/contact http://usistwo.com/contact
amorphid 14y ago
There's no question that great people working together w/ clarity and harmony can do amazing things. But selling yourself as a 10x anything to someone you don't know isn't very useful. A "10x" developer working for a "10x" boss with different priorities & values is not going to end well.

80 points by altay 14y ago

hollerith 14y ago

Does 10x take 10% of whatever the client makes?

objclxt 14y ago
10% would be on the low side for either a recruitment agency or, to run with the Ari Gold analogy, a talent agent. 15% would be more realistic, although I see recruiters trying to charge considerably more. Unscrupulous recruiters often will try to hide how much their cut is from their freelancers.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  Aside- Hollywood agents are capped at 10%, Hollywood managers typically are more like 15%. Agents are "forbidden" by California law to produce projects, though that line can be awfully blurry. Managers can't, in theory, directly negotiate contracts. In theory. A lot of talent ends up with both a manager and an agent, each with their own percentage. Toss in an attorney at 5+% and you can see how the Hollywood money really flows.
- TamDenholm 14y ago
  Recruiters for contractors in the UK generally take 20%, i've caught agencies try to take more.
  - gadders 14y ago
    It's gradually getting managed down, I believe, due to Preferred Sipplier Lists etc.
  - TheAnimus 14y ago
    As more big firms opt for management comapnies such as ResourceSolutions, this is been driven firmly down. Often its below 3% for people who've been on site 18+ months. The worst thing about RS (guess which side I'm on!) is that they advise on rate reductions. As they are often working with your competitors too, they can effectively advise that a 10% hair cut is OK because OtherBank just did a n% cut.
- hollerith 14y ago
  Recruitment agencies get paid by the employer. Hollywood talent agents in contrast, get paid by the talent. Do you we know which party pays 10x?

orangethirty 14y ago

Pop goes the bubble.

milkshakes 14y ago
Would you care to elaborate?
- orangethirty 14y ago
  The reason artists have agents is so they can get work. Because there are more artists than paid work. Programmers are in such demand that one does not need for such thing. Thus, this kind of service popping up signals that there is so much frees money flowing around (the bubble) that people are looking for ways to grab a bunch and runaway. Let's be honest here. Aside from the ego stroking of having an agent, what value do these people provide?
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    Under http://www.10xmanagement.com/#what_we_do http://www.10xmanagement.com/#what_we_do Contract negotiation, scheduling, planning, invoicing. Basically all the paperwork + customer relations, you just do the work. I don't know what their fee is, but if they do this right it could be worth it.
  - milkshakes 14y ago
    I have a friend, a Thiel fellow actually, who for personal reasons is no longer pursuing his project. He is extremely talented and creative, but, despite his credibility, ability and connections, he swears by these people because they take all the bullshit out of the equation and just let him focus on what he wants to do right now which is get paid the most money possible to work on the most interesting and intellectually stimulating projects he can. Why is that so offensive to you?
    - orangethirty 14y ago
      I'm not offended by this. At all. I'm happy your friend benefits from it.

TamDenholm 14y ago

I'd like to see this in the UK, i've always said one day i'd start that kind of agency. This is a great idea.

hugorodgerbrown 14y ago
It exists! We are building a community at YunoJuno that provides all the support of a large company, but for people who choose to be freelance. We're not quite as gung-ho as these guys - and we're not offering to manage your career - that's your business - but we do want to support talented freelancers in the creative (design, ux, dev) community. www.yunojuno.com (Oh, and we're not charging you anything - we charge the employer, fixed rate, no shenanigans.)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- mietek 14y ago
  You're missing less web-centric dev skills. Some suggestions: Haskell, C, Erlang, OCaml, C++.
  - hugorodgerbrown 14y ago
    Yup - this is true. The "skills matrix" for developers is a real bone of contention - too many and it's confusing, too few and it's limiting. In reality, for now we are focussing on creative agencies, and they are web-focussed - we are not meeting with companies who have low-level perforamnce or control issues. It's about building web and mobile apps. For now ;-)
- gadders 14y ago
  Is this just an umbrella company under other name?

gadders 14y ago

If this was such a good idea, why doesn't it exist for other professions? EG the very best lawyers, accountants etc? Is the supply more contrained for tech people? Also, freelance IT people typically work through several agents. What happens if you find a role yourself, not through these guys? Do you still have to pay them a cut?

theorique 14y ago
Lawyers and accountants tend to work for a firm rather than freelance project by project like actors and film professionals/entrepeneurs (e.g. lighting, sound, makeup, electrical, catering) will do. The same is true of some programmers as well, but I would guess more programmers (and architects, designers, project managers, tech leads, etc) do the freelance thing compared to other professionals.
- gadders 14y ago
  I suppose. But my understanding was that this 10x company would find you permanent as well as contract/freelance roles.
justinsb 14y ago
I think there's a fallacy in there; just because something hasn't been done doesn't make it a bad idea. Otherwise we should just stay shivering in the metaphorical cave. But I think it's commonly accepted that there's a huge performance difference between a good programmer and a bad programmer. People disagree as to the ratio of course; I've heard between 3x and 100x. I don't believe that's as widely mentioned for lawyers or accountants. So technology talent seems like a great place for 10x to start.

jph 14y ago

I have direct personal experience with 10x and I highly recommend them. I found them to help me with a significant employment/management need. 10x focused on finding the best solution and provided ongoing contact and advice through the whole process. I don't get anything by recommending them. I do believe fully in their business and value.

gadders 14y ago
They helped you as an employer or an employee?
- lucisferre 14y ago
  Yeah, a full story would better help to evaluate the value they provided you.
pablasso 14y ago
It would be better if you expand a little about your experience with them, this just sounds like common spam.
jph 14y ago
A few people here are asking for details: 10x helped me with a benefits/salary negotiation with one of my large clients. Michael Solomon at 10x talked with me about various kinds of research into salaries, benefits, alternative compensation, and the like. Michael was open to creative solutions, able to research comparison positions, and always aimed for a good solution. Overall I was entirely happy with his work, and he has a clear, solid, long-term vision for helping developers. As I wrote above, I don't get anything for recommended 10x. I just like to see good people get good work.

jtbigwoo 14y ago

Odd that there's not a lawyer among the listed leaders. They say they'll bring in lawyers "if necessary." Aren't most agencies for artists or athletes packed with lawyers? If I'm hiring you as my agent, I'd think that at least half your job would be the contract part of it.

fecak 14y ago
Most contracts for technologists are much less complex than contracts for artists/athletes. Actors/athletes might have incentives for performance, receipts, merch, etc that are very complex. Tech contracts are usually rates, duration, perhaps some liability, NDA and IP stuff, non-compete. Perm hire could include some stock option info as well, but you don't need a lawyer for most of this stuff unless someone is really trying to protect something.

executive 14y ago

Grant Cardone in the Cardone Zone

joonix 14y ago

Oh, no. This doesn't feel right at all. This is giving me entertainment720 vibes.

DanBC 14y ago
10x has 11 x's in the logo. So, it also has Spinal Tap vibes too.

johncampbelljr 14y ago

Of course there are already talent agents for contracts and have been for years--maybe not so much short-run freelancers but plenty of businesses place contractors for six-month+ terms. Most don't bill themselves as only for the 10xers--and for good reason--your supply of exceptional talent will quickly run out. Few 10xers get paid ten times of a 1Xer. (I bet you'd bill more with 50 1xers than 5 10Xers.) It could be that a boutique agency will get enough traction and recognition to draw enough 10xers to be crazy successful--it will be interesting to watch. But coming from the side of someone looking for good developers I'm all for a little innovation in the recruitment and employment space.

countessa 14y ago

"10x represents the best freelance programmers and designers" not to be too snooty, but couldn't they get one of their best design freelancers to give their site a bit of a makeover?

checker 14y ago
Some of the fonts are rendering strangely for me in Windows Chrome 25. The anti-aliasing is chunky. Not sure if it's some TrueType thing, it's been a while since I've had to work with such problems.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  I think he was talking about Bootstrap. This is a good example of when it's not the best choice.
brittohalloran 14y ago
Our website is 10x worse than it should be
xutopia 14y ago
Or set encoding properly? The text of last quoted client has all kinds of escaping issues.

rglullis 14y ago

1) More important than deal flow, I could see myself working with something like that if it increased my hourly rate, and if it did so substantially. I am 100% positive that most of the jobs/projects I got into I left money on the table because I didn't want to put too much effort in the negotiation process and just wanted to work on interesting things. So it would be great if something like that managed to work as a market force to push things up. However, these guys would have to be completely transparent, pretty much like we see sport athletes getting their contracts disclosed, all of their "stars" would have each of their signed projects on a billboard, complete with stats and metrics of performance. If it increased my rate by 20%, I wouldn't do it. Promise me that I would be able to live in New York and make $300-$400k/year without having to get into finance, and I could give them 10-20% of it easily. 2) Apologies in advance for my blatant stereotyping, but I couldn't help noticing that most if not all names of the guys leading this are Jewish. Coupled with the "Here's your Ari Gold" comment it makes me wonder, why is this such a Jewish-dominated field?

fecak 14y ago
Transparency is critical in all things related to recruiting (and tech talent management if it is to become a 'thing'). Most of the problems that arise are due to a lack of transparency and the recruiter's incentives. You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Not sure what to make on your assumptions of the guys leading this and their possible religious background, but since you went there - the Ari Gold reference was one I made in a similar article about agents being a possibility in tech, and I chose Ari Gold not due to any religious concepts (for transparency, I'm not Jewish) but because that his style as an agent is what everyone seems to want and he is probably the most known agent (even though fictional) in the world. I could have picked Jerry Maguire, who would be a close second I'd think. I'd have mentioned Drew Rosenhaus, but tech folks seem more knowledgeable about TV than sports.
- r00fus 14y ago
  > You wouldn't pay someone a percentage if it increased your rate by 20%? That seems a bit of a strange concept. Curious as to why not? Because nothing is free. Adding an extra layer to the sales process costs more than 20% of my time. I can't speak for rglullis, but I'd only accept 20% it if I was incapable of finding additional clients.

brittohalloran 14y ago

This 10x elitism is total bull. I'm sure the top programmers are 10x better than the worst, but there's a vast spectrum in between. The 10x notion implies that there's the worst, the good, the better, then a massive chasm, the up on the mountaintop there are "the 10xers". I'm not buying it.

localhost3000 14y ago

Please stop with the '10x' bullshit. Using this term makes you sound like immature children.

meritt 14y ago

I sense a lot of negativity here. Engineers are not good at dealing with customers. They deal with the customers so engineers don't have to. They have people skills. They are good at dealing with people! Can't you guys understand that?

danielpal 14y ago
This is absolutely not true at all. This is the same non-sense girls are taught growing up that they are not "good" at engineering. My experience has been, once engineers start interacting with customers they like it and they are good at it. Some aren't but is not the norm.
- fecak 14y ago
  Easy now. That was a movie line from Office Space.
dsugarman 14y ago
I see what you did there.. and I like it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog

fecak 14y ago

I laid out something similar here on HN last summer and Atlay (of 10x) was one of the first to comment. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4555165 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4555165) As a longtime tech recruiter, what I find most valuable about the model is that it is much more geared towards helping tech pros focus on what they do best (code) and not have to worry about what they tend to do worst (handle the business side of their work, negotiate, etc.). I haven't switched my business into an agency model at this point as I think there are still a few kinks to be worked out. Here is some recruiter-speak (what we are trained to say) that might make sense to some of the contractors out there or at least sound familiar. If you are working with a recruiter and you ask for $125/hr, and you feel that is a very fair market rate for the work you will be doing, and the recruiter is able to get the client to pay say $130/hr, chances are you won't care because you are getting your 125 and the recruiter is making almost nothing. So let's now say that the recruiter is an excellent negotiator and gets $150 - should you (as the coder) get more because the recruiter was able to negotiate a higher rate? At what point should the recruiter be rewarded for doing a good job negotiating? If the recruiter is getting $250 total and you are only at $125, surely you will feel slighted - but if $125 is the market rate for that skill, should the recruiter not be rewarded for the ability to negotiate and get a higher rate? I could argue both sides of this. One way to alleviate part of this problem is to essentially split the difference. If you come to me asking for 125, let's say my standard cut is 10% (which is low, but this is just an example) - and anything I get above that 10% we split. So at 137.5, you are at 125 and I'm at 12.5 (10%). If I get the client up to 150, I get my 12.50 (10% of your 125) + 1/2 of the additional 12.50 (150-137.5) for a total of 18.75, while you get 131.25. This way the recruiter is rewarded for getting a higher rate, and the coder doesn't feel like a victim. Unfortunately, most recruiters won't reveal the bill rate (paid by the company) to the coder or the coder's rate to the company, so all sides are in the dark except the middleman. Almost all recruiting models are quite imperfect and have some really disturbing incentives for the recruiters (http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/ http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/). Transparency between all parties is something I am offering my candidates so they can use their best judgment as to whether my advice is clouded by a higher fee with one company over another. Transparency is the real key to solving many of the problems in the industry. The agent model seems to be the right track, and hopefully we'll get it right some day.

nlh 14y ago

Something isn't sitting right with me about this. Let me explore (my gut may be wrong here)... I agree that it's important for freelance engineers and designers to have some business help. Being a good "creator" doesn't necessarily mean you're good at negotiations, and while its an important skill, there is something nice about being able to focus on doing the work (and doing a good job) vs having to find the clients, negotiate the deals, handle payment, etc. That can be an unwelcome distraction for some people who aren't naturally good at it. But that's why design/development studios exist. Even in a small shop - there's a guy who specs the project, a guy who negotiates the deal, a designer, and a developer (yes, there's often overlap in those roles). You pay a premium for the full-service of those distinct roles. I think what's bothering me here is that these guys are perpetuating the notion that, literally, hiring a "celebrity"/"rock star" engineer/designer ("10xer") is something that folks should be paying a huge premium for. And that if you are that rock star, that you're so awesome that you need talent management (who deserves 15%). The premium here isn't for a support staff to help manage the project - the premium here is to get that celebrity development talent. Not saying this is necessarily a bad thing - maybe it's an innovation that's much needed in the industry. But my gut is that they're spreading the celebrity-worship mentality of the entertainment industry to the software industry, and I'm not confident that's the right move. It works in the entertainment industry because the link is much clearer -- you put Vinny Chase in your movie, it's going to do better than if you put in a no-name actor (all else being equal). Does that same thing work in the software industry? Thoughts?

wslh 14y ago
I like the idea but not sure how much will the freelancer earn comparing with their current work. Saying it in a different way: if you already are a star developer you don't need them. As a consequence I see "star discovery" as a business instead of "star representation". They can discover stars outside the US or main US cities. I know people who already did that, but the stars then moved to the Google(s), Facebook(s).
fecak 14y ago
I think the disconnect on this is how one will define celebrity/rock star type developers. I'm sure that ideally they feel they will be the agent to some of the bigger names in the business, who certainly don't need an agent for finding work but might like someone to handle their stuff. Through my work running a Java users group for 13 years, when I reach out to big name speakers my reply comes from an assistant that handles that person's calendar and scheduling. This could be a service that someone who is speaking worldwide would pay for (as their employer pays for it if they are at Google). In reality, talent agent's in tech will probably be managing very good coders who are probably not big industry names - and that's ok. They could be very good at coding but not very good at making career choices, negotiating, and the like. The Vinny Chase reference seems to indicate that you feel that the quality of your engineers doesn't have an impact on the success of your software company. Is that accurate? I think that if you feel the quality of an engineer is not associated with the success of a product, at least to some degree, most of the people here would disagree.

andyakb 14y ago

Most people suck at negotiating, and in a field where so much value is provided, there is a lot of value that simply isn't captured by the employee. I think having a management company like this makes a lot of sense assuming that after your fee, you are able to make more than you otherwise would. As far as the website goes though, it needs a ton of work. They should basically take out their life story in the middle and use that for a press release and create a simplified about us page. Overall it really just seems like they threw everything on the page, and while nobody wants to leave anything out, having so much text is very distracting and takes away from your message

justinsb 14y ago

I really like the emphasis on quality of talent. In my experience, too many recruitment agencies (the incumbents) are heavily focused on volume and optimize around their own compensation structure. If 10x can stay focused only on genuine talent, giving the talent a steady flow of well-paying work from businesses that can't afford to have someone under-deliver, that seems like a win/win/win to me, and I'm sure they'll do well.

fecak 14y ago
The hardest part of this is turning people down. Everyone feels they are high talent (almost everyone) or top 10%, but obviously they can't all be right. The amount of people they will have to reject could be enough to give people a negative impression of them - of how they evaluate and rate talent, elitism, etc. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Tech pros love to hate how companies evaluate talent - tests, coding exercises, interviews, whiteboard work, Fermi problems. How they choose to evaluate talent, and whether they choose to tell some coders 'sorry, you aren't 10x material' will be very telling.
- justinsb 14y ago
  Definitely agree - I don't think this aspect of 10x's focus will be easy. But that's what I'd be paying for as a 10x customer - that they've done the difficult job of telling people that are perfectly competent "thanks, but no thanks".

peteforde 14y ago

I'm a tech strategist with an agent that is not 10X, and I am a very happy guy. Ted Pearlman at Us Is Two (http://usistwo.com http://usistwo.com) was referred to me by a former business partner. He was scouring North America looking for someone with legitimate CTO instincts to advise a client on an ongoing basis. Their business (health and nutrition) aligned with my interests and their location (two minutes from my house) aligned with the stars. I met the client and they were nice, interesting people with a profitable business. It's been an exceptionally good relationship; fun and lucrative for them and me. Ted and I became friends and now we work together often. I'm effective at pitching what I do and selling consulting (I started and co-ran Unspace for 8 years) but it's not what I enjoy doing. However, the real reason I'm excited to work with him is that no matter how good I am at keeping my pipeline full, there's no way that it's better than being recommended by a third party who is paying a fee to find someone with my skills. Ted authored The Pudding Manifesto (http://puddingmanifesto.org/ http://puddingmanifesto.org/) and in my experience he puts his money where his mouth is. He sends an invoice up front and says, "don't pay this unless the person I introduce to you is as good as I say they are". You'll have to ask him what percentage of people end up paying. As for developers uncomfortable with comparisons to celebrity culture and folks that complain about average developers getting left behind... this really isn't about any of that, or at least it doesn't have to be. Ted exhausts huge amounts of energy making genuine connections between people, often at his own expense. He's a hustler with a heart of gold, and has his client's best interest in mind far more often than a lot of the folks HN-types are so eager to take investment money from. If you have any questions that I haven't answered, please feel free to ask. Moreover, I encourage you to set up a time to speak with Ted: http://usistwo.com/contact http://usistwo.com/contact

amorphid 14y ago

There's no question that great people working together w/ clarity and harmony can do amazing things. But selling yourself as a 10x anything to someone you don't know isn't very useful. A "10x" developer working for a "10x" boss with different priorities & values is not going to end well.