28 ms·

Forking and Dongle Jokes Don't Belong At Tech Conferences

68 points by adriarichards 14y ago

grannyg00se 14y ago
"What many of you don’t know is that wasn’t the first time that day I had to address this issue around harassment and gender." A few guys making idiotic jokes amongst themselves about forking and dongle size is now considered harassment? I can understand they were probably being annoying, but I'm having trouble seeing this as harassment.
- japhyr 14y ago
  The pycon people are aiming to build a conference where women don't have to deal with this stuff at all. It's a lofty goal, and I appreciate them for setting a high standard. Excusing little comments creates a culture where women have to put up with innuendo throughout the conference. I saw these people removed from the room, and it was done quite appropriately. (I did not hear anything directly.)
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    If anyone wonders how bad things are they might want to think about the fact that creating an environment where this sort of thing doesn't happen is seen as a lofty goal.
    - psionski 14y ago
      If anyone wonders how bad things are, they might want to think that talking about sex is inappropriate in public, even though it's the most essential driver behind human behavior and, if you believe books, only one person on Earth was ever born without someone, somewhere having sex.
      - japhyr 14y ago
        This isn't "talking about sex". It's making comments with obvious innuendo that is not really funny. The net effect of this is to make many people feel unsafe and unwelcome. I respect that many people have the ability to ignore this "noise", but we shouldn't have to.
        psionski 14y ago
        It's funny if you like that particular type of humor. I find penises funny, and I can assure you many other people do too. Maybe exactly because of the inappropriateness, I don't know. They're just now doing research of jokes and humor. Otherwise, I fail to understand how the sexual innuendo would make her feel unsafe or unwelcome - it was a joke between friends and it wasn't even remotely targeted at her. Even if it was, offering someone your huge dongle is probably the most welcoming thing you can do, ever. It's not noise, it's a compliment.
  - singleuse 14y ago
    It seems the pycon staff acted appropriately, but Adria certainly did not, posting pictures online with this kind of comment is not okay and goes against pycon guidelines. And to me this report seems arguably abusive in the first place, but taken as a whole it amounts to witch hunting and hurts everybody to the benefit of no one. Now both PyCon, the python community, women in tech and people working towards a more women friendly tech conference have a bad image that's impossible to restore. All because one single person misinterpreted a comment and found a joke not funny, well done !
- ersii 14y ago
  Amongst themselves? They were in public! And one of them was a sponsor of the event, none the less!
  - RobinSong 14y ago
    That is definitely not how you use the phrase "None the less".
rangibaby 14y ago
I guess the big factor here would be if they were purposely saying those comments in order to be assholes. Friends do make silly jokes with each other, right? Surely the person could have just said something like "Guys, not funny, because..." instead of making it a huge public shaming in the Internet Court of Law.
- adamnemecek 14y ago
  Behaving reasonably and like an adult would not make good material for a blog post though.
- ersii 14y ago
  Sure, friends do make silly jokes. But friends don't let friends be assholes in public.
  - assholesRppl2 14y ago
    What is your point here...?
firloop 14y ago
Google Cache as website is down http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
- adriarichards 14y ago
  No worries, I added CloudFlare so the folks who were DDoS'ing my site will have to find a new hobby.
  - psionski 14y ago
    I wonder how many women are DDoS'ing you... You are destroying their image as normal, fun and smart colleagues. Now everyone is gonna "watch out" when they meet a woman, "keep their mouth shut" and many other things that alienate said woman. Guess she won't be getting invites to unofficial team-buildings, either. Good job.
    - ben0x539 14y ago
      > Now everyone is gonna "watch out" when they meet a woman, no, only creepy nerds will have to.
      - psionski 14y ago
        Penis jokes are creepy? o.O
        nikisweeting 14y ago
        No, but as the readers of a site called 'Hacker' News we're bound to be called "creepy nerds" every now and again.
        psionski 14y ago
        OT: My solution to the "creepy" part - fly the freak flag high! By utilizing a direct brain-to-mouth connection, people know exactly what I am, what I'm thinking, what excites me and why (e.g. implications on humanity for some technology). Of course, some people will be uncomfortable with some of stuff I say, but that's their problem, and most people are surprisingly understanding :)
monitron 14y ago
I am missing something here. I get that someone could be offended by these comments, but what does it have to do with being a woman? I know females who would giggle at such jokes and males who would feel uncomfortable. I feel like the person here being the most sexist is the author, for insinuating that there's something inherent in her gender that makes "forking" jokes offensive to her. I would welcome an explanation of what I'm not seeing.
- Udo 14y ago
  I don't know, it might be an American cultural convention though. Where I work I have a lot of Northern European and Asian colleages and the women here are by far worse than the men with forwarding explicit chain emails and questionable double entendres. Totally anecdotal, but it seems to me that soccer-mom characters are especially active in this area. Never mind who is doing it, I find it increddibly annoying, but it's not harassment by any meaningful definition of the word. My theory as to why it transcends annoyance and actually becomes a women's issue in America is probably because women there are expected to be asexual. So in that case it's only the men amongst themselves making these adolescent-type comments, and that in turn would make women uncomfortable because all of a sudden they have to deal with nasty group dynamics.
  - klipt 14y ago
    As I understand it, in Asia (and maybe Northern Europe too?) there is less of a stigma against women in science, so the gender ratio in these fields is more balanced. In America though science is seen as 'nerdy' and most girls are discouraged from being nerds. So women in science are a minority who constantly feel defensive and overwhelmed by attention from men.
    - Udo 14y ago
      You're probably right. I remember when I was in med school in Germany, the gender ratio was something like 70-30 women, and in the hard sciences seminars it was also at least equal.
- 14y ago
georgebarnett 14y ago
Given that it would be trivial to turn around and ask them not to offend, I fail to see the benefit in publicly going after these guys after the fact. Mob justice doesn't allow the other party the ability to alter their behaviour (we don't know if asking would have worked) nor does it allow the other party to tell their side of the story. In addition, it has a habit of causing both sides to dig their heels in and often causes more trouble.
- dodyg 14y ago
  Don't make sexual jokes in professional environment period. It is wrong and it is an act of hostility.
  - georgebarnett 14y ago
    Prior to addressing your comment I'd like to make it clear that any jokes or insults with the intention to harm are not acceptable. To address your comment - these things are not often as clear cut as you'd make out. The real world just isn't like that. Where this particular situation gets murky is that one of the men in question has replied to the charge against him, giving his side of the story: I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual context was applied by Adria, and not us. Whether you agree with his comments or not, he should have the opportunity to present his side of the story before being 'sentenced'. In this case that hasn't happened and so he's out of a job for what may have been an innocent comment taken in the wrong way by OP. It's for these reasons that vigilantism is never a solution to these issues. It's possible that in this case a deeper divide will created between those who see the comment as trivial and those who do not. The outcome will be that the former group pays less attention to more serious issues because of what they see as "crying wolf" by some parties and the latter group becomes more emphatic on trivial issues which "never get resolved". This helps neither group and does nothing to reduce these problems in the future, a net negative for all involved.
- jjacobson 14y ago
  Adria, and most women, are tired of asking people one by one not to offend. This is her asking everyone to think about what they say in public.
adamnemecek 14y ago
Way to be passive aggressive about it.
- ghurlman 14y ago
  Standing up, taking pictures without hiding, engaging with staff in front of the guys causing the problem, and pointing them out is passive? What, exactly, would you have her do to escape this passivity?
  - adamnemecek 14y ago
    Passive aggressive behavior does not imply passivity. What would I have done? Well assuming that I'd give a shit, I'd probably talk to the guys directly. You know, "Hey guys, this is a professional conference, let's keep it professional". Again, that's assuming that they actually said something objectionable which I'm not sure they did.
    - lazylizard 14y ago
      yes! exactly. its like she's in class and some boys were exchanging dirty jokes behind her and she overheard. instead of turning around to tell them to shut up 'cos its annoying her or even just to 'shhhhhhh!' , she called the teacher over to report them and then posted on her blog/fb/twitter that she just got adrian/michael/david who were sitting behind her thrown out of class for exchanging dirty jokes. and felt like a hero doing it.
alb2550 14y ago
Is this some kind of joke post? Oh, it's actually serious... I don't want to live on this planet any more.
thirdhaf 14y ago
Link to the other HN thread on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667 If the comments are to be believed someone's already lost their job over this.
general_failure 14y ago
So Lynn root says holy effing crap in the tweet. I am so offended. Why do women say things like this. I am so hurt. I wish someone showed her the code of conduct. Women talking about fucking is just not nice.
- grannyg00se 14y ago
  Not just fucking, but holy fucking. One cannot help but be assaulted by the image of their most beloved deity or earthly representative engaged in all manner of despicable behaviour. With human waste playing some sort of horrific part in the act. Highly offensive. Nightmare enducing, even.
girvo 14y ago
The "jokes" (which are lame) weren't directed at her from what I can gather. The OP publicly lynched them, and one guy was fired for it. What a crap situation all over :( I dont understand the offensiveness of what they said, directed at themselves, just being idiots. Christ, that could happen to me. Is fear of reprisal better than actual understanding?
- varjag 14y ago
  Actually it seems the jokes were fired solely because she was in the earshot. EDIT: downvoting, seriously? I just go by her account in the linked article, which I hope everyone commenting took their time to read as well. Her argument is clear and isn't anywhere as unfounded as skimming through the comments here would make you think. She of course could be making things up, which neither me, nor anything else who weren't there are able to verify.
  - gojomo 14y ago
    That's possible, but not clear to me from Richards' account.
  - DoubleMalt 14y ago
    Yes, because you postulate unfounded facts. Nothing in the story indicates that the jokes where fired because she was in the earshot.
    - varjag 14y ago
      From TFA: >He said he would be interested in forking the repo and continuing development. That would have been fine until the guy next to him… began making sexual forking jokes The guy inserted his forking double innuendos in a conversation two other persons were having. Do you seriously think he'd do that if one of those weren't a female? (Also, forking jokes? Is that 1995 or what)
      - CornishPasty 14y ago
zshprompt 14y ago
there is no excuse for saying stuff like that at a conference its just not appropriate. but posting their picture on the internet ... there is not any excuse for that either. its just plain wrong.
- singleuse 14y ago
  Heck! If I can't crack an innocent dick joke at my friend while attending a conference because others think it is inappropriate, I won't be attending any conference anymore. Or would it make more sense to use IRC chat to talk to the person sitting next to me ?
petercooper 14y ago
Steer clear of humor at professional events like this, even if talking with a friend. It's too easy to step over someone's line and come under surveillance. If you wouldn't say it in a courtroom..
charleslmunger 14y ago
I don't think there's anything wrong with jokes like this... except that they exacerbate an already huge problem. There were 4 women who graduated with a degree in CS in my class of more than 100 last year. The intro class to CS had almost 50% female enrollment. I watched as women dropped out, one by one, switching to math or other engineering majors, some to science or humanities. They were left out of study groups, judged by their looks publicly and awkwardly, and basically made to feel unwelcome. I generally hate the privilege crusader SJW attitude, but we NEED more women in CS. It's not good for society to have an environment that discourages women from joining the highest paid major coming out of college. It's worth policing our tone and being extra careful to be strictly professional. If the numbers even out, I doubt it would be such an issue.
- klipt 14y ago
  If you'll pardon me for quoting a recent Big Bang Theory episode... "All your ideas address [women] at a university level. By then it is too late. You need to design an outreach program that targets them at the middle school level and sets them on an academic track towards the hard sciences."
- assholesRppl2 14y ago
  who's to say that these "oppressed" deserve to feel so victimized? perhaps you don't see the counter-culture that badass CS chicks inspire... the terms were NOT gender-biased, and if she had wanted to counter the joke by saying something like "I'll stick a fork in YOU -- haha, just kidding, but shut up 'cuz your joke legitimately offended me," or "you better watch out before I slap you with my crime-fighting dongle," and then smiling, or something... it's guaranteed that at least they would appreciate a break in the ice, and you could move on knowing that you didn't cause anyone to lose his/her/its job. friendship can be emoted in many forms, and turning to the internet crying heresy and sexism when you see it (friendship) happening is in legitimately poor taste here. men who don't stand up for themselves think that they get bullied often, too. but there is nothing better than knowing chicks in CS who stand up for themselves and the good that they bring to the world (she++ shoutout). to cry foul this is insulting to me and my friends who enjoy humor and standing up for ourselves and not running away.
martypitt 14y ago
I'm sorry, but I read this as a total overreaction on her behalf. And, there's a massive dose of hypocrisy here, especially given the following tweets that she sent, whilst at PyCon: @skwashd you should put something in your pants next time... like a bunch of socks inside one...large...sock. TSA agent faint [1] How is this not a massive double standard? Is this not dripping with innuendo? Would it have been acceptable if the jokes about forking and dongles had been issued via tweets, rather than aloud? I doubt it. Given then terms of conduct specify "All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience", I doubt this complies. Earlier, she retweeted a joke about Autism [2], a comment about a dollar bill being "6 inches long" [3], and a crack about developers being socially awkward. [4]. Let me be clear - I take no offence from any of these posts - and I'm sure they are all meant in good humour ... but, that's not the point here, is it? And, to quote the victim herself ... "judge not yet ye be judged..." [1] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 [2] https://twitter.com/TheSportsBrain/status/312293963639971842 https://twitter.com/TheSportsBrain/status/312293963639971842 [3] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312410699311755264 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312410699311755264 [4] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312293950058815488 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312293950058815488 [5] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313508129704927233 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313508129704927233
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  The reason you can't get offended by any of these is that they're in no way offensive. Did you read the conversation around that first tweet? It in no way degrades anyone, with the possible exception of TSA agents. The one "about autism" is a comparison in which someone is compare to someone autistic because they're good at something. It seems to me that you've basically gone looking for stuff to beat her up with and still come up with a bunch of stuff that by your own admission isn't offensive. Do you seriously think those are comparable things?
  - martypitt 14y ago
    >> The reason you can't get offended by any of these is that they're in no way offensive. That's entirely subjective, which is the point of this whole thing. To me, the comments made in the original conversation were in no way offensive either. Yet, one guy lost his job as a result. >> It in no way degrades anyone, with the possible exception of TSA agents. A comment about a big dongle in no-way degrades anyone either. But, Adria took offense at it, yet deemed her own comments acceptable.
Udo 14y ago
This whole thing was a massive failure on all sides. It was a social failure by the guys who kept on making annoying and unfunny jokes (I think it actually starts with this obnoxious "thank me! thank me!" stuff). It was a total benevolence failure on part of the author who seems exceedingly gleeful about her well-calculated coup. It's a failure of society in general to think that "sexualized" environments somehow attack the expected chastity of women. Or that chastity is a virtue in the first place. It's a failure of taste to think those kinds of comments are actually funny - or even sexual for that matter, and that equally-as-annoying non-sexual comments should go unpunished. It's a failure of the geek community in general to create an environment where a constant battle is being waged between men and women, that certainly includes obnoxious and harassing behavior of groups of men, but it just as well applies to women who are constantly on the prowl to detect sex stuff. This whole thing: totally unnecessary from all sides. Instead, we could just code in peace. But as I see it nobody is making an effort to actually question the factors that led to this totally predictable and depressingly recurring disaster. Everybody is just pouncing on the scandal. This energy would be better spent by employing a healthy dose of introspection.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  I don't want to get into an argument about it because I think you're on the right side of things but the one thing I would say about your assessment is that I think you need to think about how benevolent someone should be in the face of not just a single instance of something happening but continually being subject to this stuff on an on-going basis. The "we could just code in peace" is fine up until something actually happens (such as people making inappropriate comments) at which point people have to make up their mind what to do about it. Turning the other cheek has, to date, been a remarkably ineffective technique.
  - Udo 14y ago
    I agree with in you principle, but the way this is being handled is simply not designed to alleviate any of the problems. It's sad that the only socially acceptable way of shutting up obnoxiously giggling douchebags during a presentation is by invoking the sex card. It's true that I have never been to an American tech event and I cede that I can't really know how endemic threatening male group behavior has become in these settings. However, the example at hand does not strike me as such an instance. It may well be the straw that broke the camel's back in the author's case, but on its own this affair just leaves everyone involved in a very bad light. My instinct is to look at the more basic failures that make situations like these possible, and I listed a few that struck me off the top of my head.
kaoD 14y ago
Oh boy, geeks are awful at coming up with pick-up lines. It's like watching The Big Bang Theory.
- klipt 14y ago
  There's no evidence this was a "pick up line".
  - kaoD 14y ago
    I was just kidding.
canadev 14y ago
My 2c: - The conference organizers set a very inclusive mandate that was, perhaps unwittingly, violated. - The blog post author was justified in using social media to alert the organizers that their mandate was being violated, but this probably could have been done privately with a similar effect. - It is extremely unfortunate that the violator's employers fired him. That is a big overreaction on the employer's part. - The individual outcome here of the guy getting fired sucks, really badly, but that was not the blog post author's decision to make in the first place. - If this helps people think twice before speaking in a public place, that's a good thing. The community will become more inclusive as a result. I think that this is not about political correctness but about fostering an environment that allows everyone to feel comfortable. Perhaps the general short term trend will be to overcorrect by being extremely polite and reserved, but when the community embraces women and the community is evenly split between males/females/other this will eventually fade into history as we collectively reach a tone for public conversation that embraces as many people as possible while still maintaining emotion. This isn't just a tech problem. The whole world is figuring out how to communicate with each other anew. There are gay people, ethnic minorities, people who identify with an uncommon gender, recovered drug addicts, people who have had family members die, vegetarians, etc. who will all take offense to certain remarks that were par for the course some time in the recent past. This is inevitable as the world embraces diversity and myriad forms of identity. I suspect things will work themselves out in time, and the world will become more tolerant, while allowing people to poke fun at each other in a way that doesn't take things too far for the majority of each minority.
- darkarmani 14y ago
  > If this helps people think twice before speaking in a public place, that's a good thing. The community will become more inclusive as a result. Are you (some non-offensive expletive) kidding me? This kind of overreaction will make the community more divisive. This is scorched earth -- it's not worth the risk socializing beyond your peers -- kind of action.
- CRConrad 14y ago
  "I think that this is not about political correctness but about fostering an environment that allows everyone to feel comfortable." Yeah, because an environment where you absolutely dare not make any jokes at all -- "if you wouldn't say it in a court room...", as some other poster said in all apparent sincerity -- sure is going to feel heckuva comfortable to absloutely everyone. Or, hey, waitaminnit...?
antihero 14y ago
Wait so now it is 100% un-okay to make any kind of sexual joke ever if women are remotely in the proximity? I make sexual jokes with female friends all the time, and they don't care if some of them are duds, because they are reasonable people. Surely the idea of feminism is to be treated like equal human beings, and human beings should have some sense of humour. I mean, of course tits in a slideshow is horrible because it makes women feel marginalised, however forking and dongle jokes? Seriously? Fuck that. Unless they were clearly being used to make her feel uncomfortable, what business does she have overhearing a private conversation and being offended by it?
- ladyrassilon 14y ago
  It almost feels like we are being denied access to sex-themed humour... Newsflash... we might not find forking or dongle jokes funny... does not mean that we do not enjoy jokes... it means we enjoy things that are actually funny....
  - antihero 14y ago
    Thing, sure they were crummy jokes. A reasonable response would be to not laugh.
    - aw3c2 14y ago
      I find puns(?) like dong-le, fork you, etc absolutely funny. Might be juvenile humour left but why am I not allowed to like them and laugh?
- KuraFire 14y ago
  The problems with your comment are numerous. I'll list them off in order of sentence number: 1: Strawman; assumption of binary plus suggesting Adria's post is asking for an extreme solution ("100%"), rather than being aware of context and being sensitive to these issues. 2: False assumption that your female friends all don't care about your potentially sexist remarks. Chance is greater that if they do, they wouldn't admit it to you. Furthermore, you make a wrong accusation that because your female friends don't speak up when you make bad jokes, Adria is being unreasonable in her post. Adria is completely reasonable and accurate with what she's saying. 3. You continue making wrong accusations. There is a difference between "sense of humor" and being offensive. You can be both funny (to some) and offensive (to the same and/or other people) at the same time. If you are offensive on something, you deserve being called out on it, however funny or not you might've been in the eyes of people. You also don't seem to understand your own point. Being treated like equal human beings means treating people with respect, and making degrading, sexualized jokes at a professional event is not treating people with respect. 4: If you want to have a "private conversation," leave the conference/event venue and retreat to somewhere private. This was not a private conversation as it was in the middle of an audience at a public event, in a public space. They were surrounded by people. There was nothing "private" about this conversation. Whispering or talking softly while you're amidst hundreds of people does not make your conversation "private," it certainly does not grant you immunity against shitty behavior that doesn't have a place at the event you're at.
markfinger 14y ago
Given that the author was contributing to a more accessible culture at one of the largest tech gatherings in the world, it's disappointing to see so much disbelief and anger here. Her response and the resulting actions may seem harsh as an isolated incident, but they reflect her frustration with the countless times that she would have ignored such statements. In the context of an event that prioritises diversity and equality - such that it has achieved 20% female attendance - the behaviour of the gentlemen involved represents exactly what the organisers are fighting against. The best response to this story would be for readers to reflect and to realise how unintentionally alienating the macho nature of code communities can be. The larger picture here is not Man vs. Woman. The issue is that we are members of a subculture which projects an image of immature and offensive behaviour. Behaviour which offends other races, ethnicities, ages, abilities, religions, sexual orientations AND genders.
angersock 14y ago
So, we've got the "Think of the children!" argument: I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so. I'll entertain that argument, though I think it is a wee-bit overbearing on her part to assume what will and what won't scare off this youngster; I don't believe, for example, that simple clumsy bawd would actually be enough to ruin software development for all people forever--and honestly, how many of us would want to work with someone who can't take the occasional obscene joke? This is where I have a problem with the author's actions: I decided to do things differently this time and didn’t say anything to them directly. ...especially when, in the same article, we have: I know I don’t have to be a hero in every situation. Honestly? This is what passes for heroism these days? Are you kidding me? Had the author talked to them, expressed discontent, explained why she felt their behavior was inappropriate, and all that, I'm sure everyone would've come out ahead. Instead, these poor folks are getting smeared for cracking wise to each other during a conference. No amount of hand-wringing will change the fact that the author, when given the opportunity to directly improve the situation and help set a good example, chose to make a mess of things for what is probably at best just ill-timed immaturity. If you want to help the cause of women in CS, you have to make sure that you are setting an example where your actions cannot be interpreted as fearful, backstabbing, or passive-aggressive. You want to be a positive role-model, right? EDIT: Here, a call to action. Folks, don't put up with people who are being jerks--but at least try to explain to them why they are being jerks, and try to set a good example. A lot of people don't try to screw up things--they just need a nudge to keep on the right path from time to time.
- MetaCosm 14y ago
  Or just look at the domain name, the calculation, the self-aggrandizement and realize a perfectly played marketing ploy to drive traffic to her site and get her some future speaking engagements. I give her props for deft manipulation of the situation for maximum effect, it was rather brilliant... and from her perspective the worst thing is an unfunny guy got fired, not a bad days work.
  - curtisspope 14y ago
lancewiggs 14y ago
We have to get better at this. None of the jokes were remotely funny to me, and none of them were acceptable to me. I would have called them out. But many, most even, women don't feel safe or empowered enough to call these out, and the majority of the posts on this page speak as to why. It has to stop. I understand that the HN community has a large number of younger people, and understanding appropriate behaviour is one of those things we need to learn over time. The older people should be helping though. We also have a large (ok vast) number of people who find social situations awkward, and perhaps make the wrong choices in these events. Welcome to the entire country of New Zealand, where I am from and live. (And the UK is the same for that matter.) Over here we find every single social situation awkward. We don't tell each other our names, we are intimidated by everybody and we think it is embarrassing to speak in crowds. As a society we rely far too heavily on alcohol to loosen our social behaviour to, and sadly then well beyond, acceptable levels. There are hacks to deal with these situations. One, as I stated, is alcohol. That's almost certainly going to lead to trouble at a work conference, and certainly as you age society expects you to leave earlier and partake in less. But it does work at the after-parties, and many deals are struck under the influence. But not everyone enjoys the booze-fests, so smart conferences offer alternative gatherings. Secondly, there are the codes of behaviour. That means understanding what sorts of statements are unacceptable and staying away from them. We never have to talk about not using the racist "N" word on HN, and similarly we should be at a place where it's alarmingly obvious that we never have to talk about not using sexist jokes and misogynist behaviour. It's a code - we need to live with it. Thirdly we can call this out individually, and support those who do. This blog poster did, and the conference response was superb. A large group of us in New Zealand decided, at an unconference, to do so as well. And within 5 minutes of me sitting down at the next conference, organised by a group I help govern, I was the one loudly interjecting at some very poor MC choices. Since then a large number of the people in the room, male and female, have thanked me for that intervention, making it easier next time. We need to realise that as founders, contractors, consultants, funders and employees that everything we write here is exposed to be read by not just YC, but also other people who can do business with us. Those words will last forever. We can do this. We must.
ladyrassilon 14y ago
To me they are puerile teenage boy jokes... But they are not jokes that are actually problematic and intimidating. More worrying overreacting on jokes that are not a real problem makes it that much harder to object to genuinely offensive and damaging humour.
jjacobson 14y ago
I recently helped host a hackathon in Vegas and we had several high school kids, including girls, attend. They were nervous and felt out of place at first among all the older developers. But they went in to win a significant prize at the event and are now very active in the VegasTech community. Thank god they didn't have to deal with anything like this.
xxxxxxxxxxx 14y ago
Petition to get Alex his job back: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...
- mr-hank 14y ago
  Actually, I'm not Alex. Alex was not involved in this incident. He still has a job, but I'm sure he appreciates the support.
  - reaclmbs 14y ago
    If you live or are willing to relocate to SF, put your email in your profile. I bet a lot of people would interview you in a heartbeat.
    - dakinsloss 14y ago
      Agree. I would.
drucken 14y ago
Imagine, instead of 1,000 people in a room, there are only 10. Two of them are women. - the conference specifically welcomed diversity, has many women's groups represented and 20% women attendance is considered notable - the keynote speaker is the creator of Python - the current speaker is discussing a successful initiative about young girls coding - you are one of the two women and are sitting in front of two guys who are bantering sexual jokes as the current speaker discusses part of your work and thanks others - one of the guys speaking behind you is a sponsor of the conference. What would you do?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
whbk 14y ago
This is what's wrong with America today; no one can take a joke. Political correctness, while originated with valid aims, has gotten so out of control. Was it a mistake to converse like that in mixed company? No doubt. Was an apology in order? Absolutely. Is a couple guys being immature going to make sure "she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." No, grow up and quit being overdramatic. I realize that it's not kosher to drop the "drama" bomb in talking about women, but rest assured I have and will continue to use the same language to describe men who are incredibly self-important and turn what should be moderately uncomfortable and inappropriate situations into World War 3.
tcskeptic 14y ago
From the "Attendee Procedure for Handling Harassment PyCon 2013" https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... "Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."
lazylizard 14y ago
she could change seats. or turn around and speak to them and tell them she can overhear them and its not cool. why turn it into some sort of vigilante prosecution of juvenile behaviour + public lynching? i'd like to imagine most people don't have the kind of moral/cutural baggage to want to do that to strangers they happen to overhear/pass by/randomly encounter..
elvis57 14y ago
As a 56 year old gay man, and defender of women (I have two sisters), I applaud your bravery and standing up for your beliefs. Much congrats to you! You stood up for yourself, and you are a winner! Thanks for doing so. Sincerely, Tim Monteith

68 points by adriarichards 14y ago

"What many of you don’t know is that wasn’t the first time that day I had to address this issue around harassment and gender." A few guys making idiotic jokes amongst themselves about forking and dongle size is now considered harassment? I can understand they were probably being annoying, but I'm having trouble seeing this as harassment.

japhyr 14y ago
The pycon people are aiming to build a conference where women don't have to deal with this stuff at all. It's a lofty goal, and I appreciate them for setting a high standard. Excusing little comments creates a culture where women have to put up with innuendo throughout the conference. I saw these people removed from the room, and it was done quite appropriately. (I did not hear anything directly.)
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  If anyone wonders how bad things are they might want to think about the fact that creating an environment where this sort of thing doesn't happen is seen as a lofty goal.
  - psionski 14y ago
    If anyone wonders how bad things are, they might want to think that talking about sex is inappropriate in public, even though it's the most essential driver behind human behavior and, if you believe books, only one person on Earth was ever born without someone, somewhere having sex.
    - japhyr 14y ago
      This isn't "talking about sex". It's making comments with obvious innuendo that is not really funny. The net effect of this is to make many people feel unsafe and unwelcome. I respect that many people have the ability to ignore this "noise", but we shouldn't have to.
      - psionski 14y ago
        It's funny if you like that particular type of humor. I find penises funny, and I can assure you many other people do too. Maybe exactly because of the inappropriateness, I don't know. They're just now doing research of jokes and humor. Otherwise, I fail to understand how the sexual innuendo would make her feel unsafe or unwelcome - it was a joke between friends and it wasn't even remotely targeted at her. Even if it was, offering someone your huge dongle is probably the most welcoming thing you can do, ever. It's not noise, it's a compliment.
- singleuse 14y ago
  It seems the pycon staff acted appropriately, but Adria certainly did not, posting pictures online with this kind of comment is not okay and goes against pycon guidelines. And to me this report seems arguably abusive in the first place, but taken as a whole it amounts to witch hunting and hurts everybody to the benefit of no one. Now both PyCon, the python community, women in tech and people working towards a more women friendly tech conference have a bad image that's impossible to restore. All because one single person misinterpreted a comment and found a joke not funny, well done !
ersii 14y ago
Amongst themselves? They were in public! And one of them was a sponsor of the event, none the less!
- RobinSong 14y ago
  That is definitely not how you use the phrase "None the less".

rangibaby 14y ago

I guess the big factor here would be if they were purposely saying those comments in order to be assholes. Friends do make silly jokes with each other, right? Surely the person could have just said something like "Guys, not funny, because..." instead of making it a huge public shaming in the Internet Court of Law.

adamnemecek 14y ago
Behaving reasonably and like an adult would not make good material for a blog post though.
ersii 14y ago
Sure, friends do make silly jokes. But friends don't let friends be assholes in public.
- assholesRppl2 14y ago
  What is your point here...?

firloop 14y ago

Google Cache as website is down http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...

adriarichards 14y ago
No worries, I added CloudFlare so the folks who were DDoS'ing my site will have to find a new hobby.
- psionski 14y ago
  I wonder how many women are DDoS'ing you... You are destroying their image as normal, fun and smart colleagues. Now everyone is gonna "watch out" when they meet a woman, "keep their mouth shut" and many other things that alienate said woman. Guess she won't be getting invites to unofficial team-buildings, either. Good job.
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    > Now everyone is gonna "watch out" when they meet a woman, no, only creepy nerds will have to.
    - psionski 14y ago
      Penis jokes are creepy? o.O
      - nikisweeting 14y ago
        No, but as the readers of a site called 'Hacker' News we're bound to be called "creepy nerds" every now and again.
        psionski 14y ago
        OT: My solution to the "creepy" part - fly the freak flag high! By utilizing a direct brain-to-mouth connection, people know exactly what I am, what I'm thinking, what excites me and why (e.g. implications on humanity for some technology). Of course, some people will be uncomfortable with some of stuff I say, but that's their problem, and most people are surprisingly understanding :)

monitron 14y ago

I am missing something here. I get that someone could be offended by these comments, but what does it have to do with being a woman? I know females who would giggle at such jokes and males who would feel uncomfortable. I feel like the person here being the most sexist is the author, for insinuating that there's something inherent in her gender that makes "forking" jokes offensive to her. I would welcome an explanation of what I'm not seeing.

Udo 14y ago
I don't know, it might be an American cultural convention though. Where I work I have a lot of Northern European and Asian colleages and the women here are by far worse than the men with forwarding explicit chain emails and questionable double entendres. Totally anecdotal, but it seems to me that soccer-mom characters are especially active in this area. Never mind who is doing it, I find it increddibly annoying, but it's not harassment by any meaningful definition of the word. My theory as to why it transcends annoyance and actually becomes a women's issue in America is probably because women there are expected to be asexual. So in that case it's only the men amongst themselves making these adolescent-type comments, and that in turn would make women uncomfortable because all of a sudden they have to deal with nasty group dynamics.
- klipt 14y ago
  As I understand it, in Asia (and maybe Northern Europe too?) there is less of a stigma against women in science, so the gender ratio in these fields is more balanced. In America though science is seen as 'nerdy' and most girls are discouraged from being nerds. So women in science are a minority who constantly feel defensive and overwhelmed by attention from men.
  - Udo 14y ago
    You're probably right. I remember when I was in med school in Germany, the gender ratio was something like 70-30 women, and in the hard sciences seminars it was also at least equal.
14y ago

georgebarnett 14y ago

Given that it would be trivial to turn around and ask them not to offend, I fail to see the benefit in publicly going after these guys after the fact. Mob justice doesn't allow the other party the ability to alter their behaviour (we don't know if asking would have worked) nor does it allow the other party to tell their side of the story. In addition, it has a habit of causing both sides to dig their heels in and often causes more trouble.

dodyg 14y ago
Don't make sexual jokes in professional environment period. It is wrong and it is an act of hostility.
- georgebarnett 14y ago
  Prior to addressing your comment I'd like to make it clear that any jokes or insults with the intention to harm are not acceptable. To address your comment - these things are not often as clear cut as you'd make out. The real world just isn't like that. Where this particular situation gets murky is that one of the men in question has replied to the charge against him, giving his side of the story: I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual context was applied by Adria, and not us. Whether you agree with his comments or not, he should have the opportunity to present his side of the story before being 'sentenced'. In this case that hasn't happened and so he's out of a job for what may have been an innocent comment taken in the wrong way by OP. It's for these reasons that vigilantism is never a solution to these issues. It's possible that in this case a deeper divide will created between those who see the comment as trivial and those who do not. The outcome will be that the former group pays less attention to more serious issues because of what they see as "crying wolf" by some parties and the latter group becomes more emphatic on trivial issues which "never get resolved". This helps neither group and does nothing to reduce these problems in the future, a net negative for all involved.
jjacobson 14y ago
Adria, and most women, are tired of asking people one by one not to offend. This is her asking everyone to think about what they say in public.

adamnemecek 14y ago

Way to be passive aggressive about it.

ghurlman 14y ago
Standing up, taking pictures without hiding, engaging with staff in front of the guys causing the problem, and pointing them out is passive? What, exactly, would you have her do to escape this passivity?
- adamnemecek 14y ago
  Passive aggressive behavior does not imply passivity. What would I have done? Well assuming that I'd give a shit, I'd probably talk to the guys directly. You know, "Hey guys, this is a professional conference, let's keep it professional". Again, that's assuming that they actually said something objectionable which I'm not sure they did.
  - lazylizard 14y ago
    yes! exactly. its like she's in class and some boys were exchanging dirty jokes behind her and she overheard. instead of turning around to tell them to shut up 'cos its annoying her or even just to 'shhhhhhh!' , she called the teacher over to report them and then posted on her blog/fb/twitter that she just got adrian/michael/david who were sitting behind her thrown out of class for exchanging dirty jokes. and felt like a hero doing it.

alb2550 14y ago

Is this some kind of joke post? Oh, it's actually serious... I don't want to live on this planet any more.

thirdhaf 14y ago

Link to the other HN thread on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667 If the comments are to be believed someone's already lost their job over this.

general_failure 14y ago

So Lynn root says holy effing crap in the tweet. I am so offended. Why do women say things like this. I am so hurt. I wish someone showed her the code of conduct. Women talking about fucking is just not nice.

grannyg00se 14y ago
Not just fucking, but holy fucking. One cannot help but be assaulted by the image of their most beloved deity or earthly representative engaged in all manner of despicable behaviour. With human waste playing some sort of horrific part in the act. Highly offensive. Nightmare enducing, even.

girvo 14y ago

The "jokes" (which are lame) weren't directed at her from what I can gather. The OP publicly lynched them, and one guy was fired for it. What a crap situation all over :( I dont understand the offensiveness of what they said, directed at themselves, just being idiots. Christ, that could happen to me. Is fear of reprisal better than actual understanding?

varjag 14y ago
Actually it seems the jokes were fired solely because she was in the earshot. EDIT: downvoting, seriously? I just go by her account in the linked article, which I hope everyone commenting took their time to read as well. Her argument is clear and isn't anywhere as unfounded as skimming through the comments here would make you think. She of course could be making things up, which neither me, nor anything else who weren't there are able to verify.
- gojomo 14y ago
  That's possible, but not clear to me from Richards' account.
- DoubleMalt 14y ago
  Yes, because you postulate unfounded facts. Nothing in the story indicates that the jokes where fired because she was in the earshot.
  - varjag 14y ago
    From TFA: >He said he would be interested in forking the repo and continuing development. That would have been fine until the guy next to him… began making sexual forking jokes The guy inserted his forking double innuendos in a conversation two other persons were having. Do you seriously think he'd do that if one of those weren't a female? (Also, forking jokes? Is that 1995 or what)
    - CornishPasty 14y ago

zshprompt 14y ago

there is no excuse for saying stuff like that at a conference its just not appropriate. but posting their picture on the internet ... there is not any excuse for that either. its just plain wrong.

singleuse 14y ago
Heck! If I can't crack an innocent dick joke at my friend while attending a conference because others think it is inappropriate, I won't be attending any conference anymore. Or would it make more sense to use IRC chat to talk to the person sitting next to me ?

petercooper 14y ago

Steer clear of humor at professional events like this, even if talking with a friend. It's too easy to step over someone's line and come under surveillance. If you wouldn't say it in a courtroom..

charleslmunger 14y ago

I don't think there's anything wrong with jokes like this... except that they exacerbate an already huge problem. There were 4 women who graduated with a degree in CS in my class of more than 100 last year. The intro class to CS had almost 50% female enrollment. I watched as women dropped out, one by one, switching to math or other engineering majors, some to science or humanities. They were left out of study groups, judged by their looks publicly and awkwardly, and basically made to feel unwelcome. I generally hate the privilege crusader SJW attitude, but we NEED more women in CS. It's not good for society to have an environment that discourages women from joining the highest paid major coming out of college. It's worth policing our tone and being extra careful to be strictly professional. If the numbers even out, I doubt it would be such an issue.

klipt 14y ago
If you'll pardon me for quoting a recent Big Bang Theory episode... "All your ideas address [women] at a university level. By then it is too late. You need to design an outreach program that targets them at the middle school level and sets them on an academic track towards the hard sciences."
assholesRppl2 14y ago
who's to say that these "oppressed" deserve to feel so victimized? perhaps you don't see the counter-culture that badass CS chicks inspire... the terms were NOT gender-biased, and if she had wanted to counter the joke by saying something like "I'll stick a fork in YOU -- haha, just kidding, but shut up 'cuz your joke legitimately offended me," or "you better watch out before I slap you with my crime-fighting dongle," and then smiling, or something... it's guaranteed that at least they would appreciate a break in the ice, and you could move on knowing that you didn't cause anyone to lose his/her/its job. friendship can be emoted in many forms, and turning to the internet crying heresy and sexism when you see it (friendship) happening is in legitimately poor taste here. men who don't stand up for themselves think that they get bullied often, too. but there is nothing better than knowing chicks in CS who stand up for themselves and the good that they bring to the world (she++ shoutout). to cry foul this is insulting to me and my friends who enjoy humor and standing up for ourselves and not running away.

martypitt 14y ago

I'm sorry, but I read this as a total overreaction on her behalf. And, there's a massive dose of hypocrisy here, especially given the following tweets that she sent, whilst at PyCon: @skwashd you should put something in your pants next time... like a bunch of socks inside one...large...sock. TSA agent faint [1] How is this not a massive double standard? Is this not dripping with innuendo? Would it have been acceptable if the jokes about forking and dongles had been issued via tweets, rather than aloud? I doubt it. Given then terms of conduct specify "All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience", I doubt this complies. Earlier, she retweeted a joke about Autism [2], a comment about a dollar bill being "6 inches long" [3], and a crack about developers being socially awkward. [4]. Let me be clear - I take no offence from any of these posts - and I'm sure they are all meant in good humour ... but, that's not the point here, is it? And, to quote the victim herself ... "judge not yet ye be judged..." [1] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 [2] https://twitter.com/TheSportsBrain/status/312293963639971842 https://twitter.com/TheSportsBrain/status/312293963639971842 [3] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312410699311755264 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312410699311755264 [4] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312293950058815488 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312293950058815488 [5] https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313508129704927233 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313508129704927233

Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
The reason you can't get offended by any of these is that they're in no way offensive. Did you read the conversation around that first tweet? It in no way degrades anyone, with the possible exception of TSA agents. The one "about autism" is a comparison in which someone is compare to someone autistic because they're good at something. It seems to me that you've basically gone looking for stuff to beat her up with and still come up with a bunch of stuff that by your own admission isn't offensive. Do you seriously think those are comparable things?
- martypitt 14y ago
  >> The reason you can't get offended by any of these is that they're in no way offensive. That's entirely subjective, which is the point of this whole thing. To me, the comments made in the original conversation were in no way offensive either. Yet, one guy lost his job as a result. >> It in no way degrades anyone, with the possible exception of TSA agents. A comment about a big dongle in no-way degrades anyone either. But, Adria took offense at it, yet deemed her own comments acceptable.

Udo 14y ago

This whole thing was a massive failure on all sides. It was a social failure by the guys who kept on making annoying and unfunny jokes (I think it actually starts with this obnoxious "thank me! thank me!" stuff). It was a total benevolence failure on part of the author who seems exceedingly gleeful about her well-calculated coup. It's a failure of society in general to think that "sexualized" environments somehow attack the expected chastity of women. Or that chastity is a virtue in the first place. It's a failure of taste to think those kinds of comments are actually funny - or even sexual for that matter, and that equally-as-annoying non-sexual comments should go unpunished. It's a failure of the geek community in general to create an environment where a constant battle is being waged between men and women, that certainly includes obnoxious and harassing behavior of groups of men, but it just as well applies to women who are constantly on the prowl to detect sex stuff. This whole thing: totally unnecessary from all sides. Instead, we could just code in peace. But as I see it nobody is making an effort to actually question the factors that led to this totally predictable and depressingly recurring disaster. Everybody is just pouncing on the scandal. This energy would be better spent by employing a healthy dose of introspection.

Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
I don't want to get into an argument about it because I think you're on the right side of things but the one thing I would say about your assessment is that I think you need to think about how benevolent someone should be in the face of not just a single instance of something happening but continually being subject to this stuff on an on-going basis. The "we could just code in peace" is fine up until something actually happens (such as people making inappropriate comments) at which point people have to make up their mind what to do about it. Turning the other cheek has, to date, been a remarkably ineffective technique.
- Udo 14y ago
  I agree with in you principle, but the way this is being handled is simply not designed to alleviate any of the problems. It's sad that the only socially acceptable way of shutting up obnoxiously giggling douchebags during a presentation is by invoking the sex card. It's true that I have never been to an American tech event and I cede that I can't really know how endemic threatening male group behavior has become in these settings. However, the example at hand does not strike me as such an instance. It may well be the straw that broke the camel's back in the author's case, but on its own this affair just leaves everyone involved in a very bad light. My instinct is to look at the more basic failures that make situations like these possible, and I listed a few that struck me off the top of my head.

kaoD 14y ago

Oh boy, geeks are awful at coming up with pick-up lines. It's like watching The Big Bang Theory.

klipt 14y ago
There's no evidence this was a "pick up line".
- kaoD 14y ago
  I was just kidding.

canadev 14y ago

My 2c: - The conference organizers set a very inclusive mandate that was, perhaps unwittingly, violated. - The blog post author was justified in using social media to alert the organizers that their mandate was being violated, but this probably could have been done privately with a similar effect. - It is extremely unfortunate that the violator's employers fired him. That is a big overreaction on the employer's part. - The individual outcome here of the guy getting fired sucks, really badly, but that was not the blog post author's decision to make in the first place. - If this helps people think twice before speaking in a public place, that's a good thing. The community will become more inclusive as a result. I think that this is not about political correctness but about fostering an environment that allows everyone to feel comfortable. Perhaps the general short term trend will be to overcorrect by being extremely polite and reserved, but when the community embraces women and the community is evenly split between males/females/other this will eventually fade into history as we collectively reach a tone for public conversation that embraces as many people as possible while still maintaining emotion. This isn't just a tech problem. The whole world is figuring out how to communicate with each other anew. There are gay people, ethnic minorities, people who identify with an uncommon gender, recovered drug addicts, people who have had family members die, vegetarians, etc. who will all take offense to certain remarks that were par for the course some time in the recent past. This is inevitable as the world embraces diversity and myriad forms of identity. I suspect things will work themselves out in time, and the world will become more tolerant, while allowing people to poke fun at each other in a way that doesn't take things too far for the majority of each minority.

darkarmani 14y ago
> If this helps people think twice before speaking in a public place, that's a good thing. The community will become more inclusive as a result. Are you (some non-offensive expletive) kidding me? This kind of overreaction will make the community more divisive. This is scorched earth -- it's not worth the risk socializing beyond your peers -- kind of action.
CRConrad 14y ago
"I think that this is not about political correctness but about fostering an environment that allows everyone to feel comfortable." Yeah, because an environment where you absolutely dare not make any jokes at all -- "if you wouldn't say it in a court room...", as some other poster said in all apparent sincerity -- sure is going to feel heckuva comfortable to absloutely everyone. Or, hey, waitaminnit...?

antihero 14y ago

Wait so now it is 100% un-okay to make any kind of sexual joke ever if women are remotely in the proximity? I make sexual jokes with female friends all the time, and they don't care if some of them are duds, because they are reasonable people. Surely the idea of feminism is to be treated like equal human beings, and human beings should have some sense of humour. I mean, of course tits in a slideshow is horrible because it makes women feel marginalised, however forking and dongle jokes? Seriously? Fuck that. Unless they were clearly being used to make her feel uncomfortable, what business does she have overhearing a private conversation and being offended by it?

ladyrassilon 14y ago
It almost feels like we are being denied access to sex-themed humour... Newsflash... we might not find forking or dongle jokes funny... does not mean that we do not enjoy jokes... it means we enjoy things that are actually funny....
- antihero 14y ago
  Thing, sure they were crummy jokes. A reasonable response would be to not laugh.
  - aw3c2 14y ago
    I find puns(?) like dong-le, fork you, etc absolutely funny. Might be juvenile humour left but why am I not allowed to like them and laugh?
KuraFire 14y ago
The problems with your comment are numerous. I'll list them off in order of sentence number: 1: Strawman; assumption of binary plus suggesting Adria's post is asking for an extreme solution ("100%"), rather than being aware of context and being sensitive to these issues. 2: False assumption that your female friends all don't care about your potentially sexist remarks. Chance is greater that if they do, they wouldn't admit it to you. Furthermore, you make a wrong accusation that because your female friends don't speak up when you make bad jokes, Adria is being unreasonable in her post. Adria is completely reasonable and accurate with what she's saying. 3. You continue making wrong accusations. There is a difference between "sense of humor" and being offensive. You can be both funny (to some) and offensive (to the same and/or other people) at the same time. If you are offensive on something, you deserve being called out on it, however funny or not you might've been in the eyes of people. You also don't seem to understand your own point. Being treated like equal human beings means treating people with respect, and making degrading, sexualized jokes at a professional event is not treating people with respect. 4: If you want to have a "private conversation," leave the conference/event venue and retreat to somewhere private. This was not a private conversation as it was in the middle of an audience at a public event, in a public space. They were surrounded by people. There was nothing "private" about this conversation. Whispering or talking softly while you're amidst hundreds of people does not make your conversation "private," it certainly does not grant you immunity against shitty behavior that doesn't have a place at the event you're at.

markfinger 14y ago

Given that the author was contributing to a more accessible culture at one of the largest tech gatherings in the world, it's disappointing to see so much disbelief and anger here. Her response and the resulting actions may seem harsh as an isolated incident, but they reflect her frustration with the countless times that she would have ignored such statements. In the context of an event that prioritises diversity and equality - such that it has achieved 20% female attendance - the behaviour of the gentlemen involved represents exactly what the organisers are fighting against. The best response to this story would be for readers to reflect and to realise how unintentionally alienating the macho nature of code communities can be. The larger picture here is not Man vs. Woman. The issue is that we are members of a subculture which projects an image of immature and offensive behaviour. Behaviour which offends other races, ethnicities, ages, abilities, religions, sexual orientations AND genders.

angersock 14y ago

So, we've got the "Think of the children!" argument: I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so. I'll entertain that argument, though I think it is a wee-bit overbearing on her part to assume what will and what won't scare off this youngster; I don't believe, for example, that simple clumsy bawd would actually be enough to ruin software development for all people forever--and honestly, how many of us would want to work with someone who can't take the occasional obscene joke? This is where I have a problem with the author's actions: I decided to do things differently this time and didn’t say anything to them directly. ...especially when, in the same article, we have: I know I don’t have to be a hero in every situation. Honestly? This is what passes for heroism these days? Are you kidding me? Had the author talked to them, expressed discontent, explained why she felt their behavior was inappropriate, and all that, I'm sure everyone would've come out ahead. Instead, these poor folks are getting smeared for cracking wise to each other during a conference. No amount of hand-wringing will change the fact that the author, when given the opportunity to directly improve the situation and help set a good example, chose to make a mess of things for what is probably at best just ill-timed immaturity. If you want to help the cause of women in CS, you have to make sure that you are setting an example where your actions cannot be interpreted as fearful, backstabbing, or passive-aggressive. You want to be a positive role-model, right? EDIT: Here, a call to action. Folks, don't put up with people who are being jerks--but at least try to explain to them why they are being jerks, and try to set a good example. A lot of people don't try to screw up things--they just need a nudge to keep on the right path from time to time.

MetaCosm 14y ago
Or just look at the domain name, the calculation, the self-aggrandizement and realize a perfectly played marketing ploy to drive traffic to her site and get her some future speaking engagements. I give her props for deft manipulation of the situation for maximum effect, it was rather brilliant... and from her perspective the worst thing is an unfunny guy got fired, not a bad days work.
- curtisspope 14y ago

lancewiggs 14y ago

We have to get better at this. None of the jokes were remotely funny to me, and none of them were acceptable to me. I would have called them out. But many, most even, women don't feel safe or empowered enough to call these out, and the majority of the posts on this page speak as to why. It has to stop. I understand that the HN community has a large number of younger people, and understanding appropriate behaviour is one of those things we need to learn over time. The older people should be helping though. We also have a large (ok vast) number of people who find social situations awkward, and perhaps make the wrong choices in these events. Welcome to the entire country of New Zealand, where I am from and live. (And the UK is the same for that matter.) Over here we find every single social situation awkward. We don't tell each other our names, we are intimidated by everybody and we think it is embarrassing to speak in crowds. As a society we rely far too heavily on alcohol to loosen our social behaviour to, and sadly then well beyond, acceptable levels. There are hacks to deal with these situations. One, as I stated, is alcohol. That's almost certainly going to lead to trouble at a work conference, and certainly as you age society expects you to leave earlier and partake in less. But it does work at the after-parties, and many deals are struck under the influence. But not everyone enjoys the booze-fests, so smart conferences offer alternative gatherings. Secondly, there are the codes of behaviour. That means understanding what sorts of statements are unacceptable and staying away from them. We never have to talk about not using the racist "N" word on HN, and similarly we should be at a place where it's alarmingly obvious that we never have to talk about not using sexist jokes and misogynist behaviour. It's a code - we need to live with it. Thirdly we can call this out individually, and support those who do. This blog poster did, and the conference response was superb. A large group of us in New Zealand decided, at an unconference, to do so as well. And within 5 minutes of me sitting down at the next conference, organised by a group I help govern, I was the one loudly interjecting at some very poor MC choices. Since then a large number of the people in the room, male and female, have thanked me for that intervention, making it easier next time. We need to realise that as founders, contractors, consultants, funders and employees that everything we write here is exposed to be read by not just YC, but also other people who can do business with us. Those words will last forever. We can do this. We must.

ladyrassilon 14y ago

To me they are puerile teenage boy jokes... But they are not jokes that are actually problematic and intimidating. More worrying overreacting on jokes that are not a real problem makes it that much harder to object to genuinely offensive and damaging humour.

jjacobson 14y ago

I recently helped host a hackathon in Vegas and we had several high school kids, including girls, attend. They were nervous and felt out of place at first among all the older developers. But they went in to win a significant prize at the event and are now very active in the VegasTech community. Thank god they didn't have to deal with anything like this.

xxxxxxxxxxx 14y ago

Petition to get Alex his job back: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...

mr-hank 14y ago
Actually, I'm not Alex. Alex was not involved in this incident. He still has a job, but I'm sure he appreciates the support.
- reaclmbs 14y ago
  If you live or are willing to relocate to SF, put your email in your profile. I bet a lot of people would interview you in a heartbeat.
  - dakinsloss 14y ago
    Agree. I would.

drucken 14y ago

Imagine, instead of 1,000 people in a room, there are only 10. Two of them are women. - the conference specifically welcomed diversity, has many women's groups represented and 20% women attendance is considered notable - the keynote speaker is the creator of Python - the current speaker is discussing a successful initiative about young girls coding - you are one of the two women and are sitting in front of two guys who are bantering sexual jokes as the current speaker discusses part of your work and thanks others - one of the guys speaking behind you is a sponsor of the conference. What would you do?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

whbk 14y ago

This is what's wrong with America today; no one can take a joke. Political correctness, while originated with valid aims, has gotten so out of control. Was it a mistake to converse like that in mixed company? No doubt. Was an apology in order? Absolutely. Is a couple guys being immature going to make sure "she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." No, grow up and quit being overdramatic. I realize that it's not kosher to drop the "drama" bomb in talking about women, but rest assured I have and will continue to use the same language to describe men who are incredibly self-important and turn what should be moderately uncomfortable and inappropriate situations into World War 3.

tcskeptic 14y ago

From the "Attendee Procedure for Handling Harassment PyCon 2013" https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... "Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."

lazylizard 14y ago

she could change seats. or turn around and speak to them and tell them she can overhear them and its not cool. why turn it into some sort of vigilante prosecution of juvenile behaviour + public lynching? i'd like to imagine most people don't have the kind of moral/cutural baggage to want to do that to strangers they happen to overhear/pass by/randomly encounter..

elvis57 14y ago

As a 56 year old gay man, and defender of women (I have two sisters), I applaud your bravery and standing up for your beliefs. Much congrats to you! You stood up for yourself, and you are a winner! Thanks for doing so. Sincerely, Tim Monteith