8 ms·

I have two nearly new Thinkpads right now and I don't need a 3rd laptop. But with this shit hitting the market soon, I am contemplating ordering a T530 and perh

I have two nearly new Thinkpads right now and I don't need a 3rd laptop. But with this shit hitting the market soon, I am contemplating ordering a T530 and perhaps an x230 in top configurations and keep them in a closet for future use. After this pinnacle of Lenovo engineering goes on sale there won't be a single laptop on the market worth using. Not sure what I think of Apple right now. On one hand, they catapulted the laptop designers around the world into producing this crap. On the other hand, by creating the iPad they've started the process of moving consumers off laptops into dedicated facebook terminals AKA tablets, so perhaps the high-res IPS screens with quality keyboards+trackpads will soon be offered again for a premium price. I am rooting for Dell here. Now when Lenovo is gone, their Precision series is probably the closest one to take advantage of this. Does anyone want to apply to YC with a novel idea: make computers for people who make money using computers?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
kunai 14y ago
Does anyone want to apply to YC with a novel idea: make computers for people who make money using computers? I actually thought about this. A nice, rugged computer with a good keyboard, sturdy construction, great pointing stick hardware and 16:10 display. All of which ThinkPad just isn't right now. Unfortunately, my financial options and also my experience is very limited in this regard. If anyone proposes a project like this on Kickstarter, I'll be the first to throw money at it.
- Stratoscope 14y ago
  Unfortunately, the "great pointing stick hardware" will likely run into some IBM patents. None of the other machines with pointing sticks have ever been able to get the same natural response as a TrackPoint, I believe partly because of these patents. What a deal: Lenovo doesn't want to make professional machines any more, but they won't likely let anyone else use the TrackPoint patents.
  - kunai 14y ago
    I actually used a Toshiba Tecra a long time ago (circa 2005) that had a pointing stick with response very close to a TrackPoint. I don't think it would be impossible; only difficult.
  - gonzo 14y ago
    Tadpole used the same IBM device without the IBM controller (and its patent licenses). 5 man months of an excellent sw dev on an h8 uC.
  - benmccann 14y ago
    Those patents are expiring soon. http://www.google.com/patents/US5521596 http://www.google.com/patents/US5521596 - Analog input device located in the primary typing area of a keyboard - Expires May 28, 2013 http://www.google.com/patents/US5489900 http://www.google.com/patents/US5489900 - Force sensitive transducer for use in a computer keyboard - Expires Jun 3, 2014
kunai 14y ago
> I am rooting for Dell here. Now when Lenovo is gone, their Precision series is probably the closest one to take advantage of this. I love the Precision line. If only they made a 14" laptop... I would never buy ThinkPads again.
yolesaber 14y ago
Have you looked into System76's machines at all? Right now I am using their Gazelle Professional model (https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp8 https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp8). I have to say it is the best damn laptop I've ever owned and this is coming from a long-time Thinkpad user
- wtallis 14y ago
  Aren't System76's laptops all just re-branded Clevo machines?
- old-gregg 14y ago
  I look at them every time I'm shopping for a laptop. They never offer anything comparable to a proper Thinkpad. The laptop you're linking to lacks nearly everything imporant: * No trackpoint * Touchpad buttons are in the wrong place (must be on top, under thumbs) * No IPS display * Keyboard is crippled. Compare to a proper keyboard [1] The #1 and #2 basicaly mean "this laptop has no mouse" Apple-style touchpad is useless for people who type a lot (you can't use them while your hands are in FJ-position). #3 means "cannot work with images with more than 65K colors". [1] Proper keyboard: http://www.notebookcheck.net/typo3temp/pics/ea701ff5cd.jpg http://www.notebookcheck.net/typo3temp/pics/ea701ff5cd.jpg Things to notice: * Giant "Esc" key * Dedicated forward/backward buttons for browsing * Full-sized Fn keys * Dedicated blocks for navigation keys * Because it's ergonomic, it's not a dumb rectangular shape. Lenovo hates this IBM design because it is more expensive to produce. Also, look at how UltraNav works: you can use the mouse by keeping your hands in a typing position (FJ). This way you can nearly instantaneously replace the previously typed word by using the trackpoint + buttons under your thumbs. This speeds up your typing or coding significantly. This gives Vim/Emacs users superpowers! :) Cheap laptops force you to move your hands a lot to switch between the mouse and keyboard.
  - limmeau 14y ago
    I always hated the forward-backward buttons. In Eclipse and VS, I kept hitting them when reaching for Shift or Cursor, and ended up in a different file.
  - 14y ago
ninjin 14y ago
> I am rooting for Dell here. Now when Lenovo is gone, their Precision series is probably the closest one to take advantage of this. I would hope for the same, the only problem is that there has been some worrying tendencies in the Dell camp as well. Look at the old Latitude series which was geared towards business [1]. It was solid, good keyboard, not a bundle of plastic etc. The design was new back in 2008 and now look what they turned it into [2]. It looks like a horrible mix between their all too plastic XPS series and the old Latitude. Also, doesn't it also look fat with those stupid rounded edges? Honestly, the best laptop I know of out there is the Dell Latitude 2XXX series [3]. That although ridden with plastic, a not so good keyboard and a slow CPU, it is built like a brick (like IBM/Lenovo used to make them). I am quite confident I could render someone unconscious with it and still be able to continue working using it afterwards. I need to upgrade my old Latitude within this year and I am desperate to find a good candidate, having considered the T420 I now dread the T421. Suggestions are most welcome. [1]: http://www.pclaunches.com/entry_images/0308/22/dell_latitude-e-series-thumb-450x322.jpg http://www.pclaunches.com/entry_images/0308/22/dell_latitude... [2]: http://www.digitalcityegypt.com/Files/images/634910290525410000_dell-latitude-e6420-2.jpg http://www.digitalcityegypt.com/Files/images/634910290525410... [3]: https://imageshack.us/a/img216/3950/dell2100009.jpg https://imageshack.us/a/img216/3950/dell2100009.jpg
- hjalle 14y ago
  What about the Dell latitude 6430u[1]? I've not seen it yet but if someone have any comments on it I'd be happy to hear! Seems like it's at least possible to get it with 1600x900. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-6430u-ultrabook/fs http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-6430u-ultrabook/f... Edit: Seems like the 1600x900 resolution is only avaialable in US, or at least not in Sweden.
  - kybernetikos 14y ago
    1600 x 900, one of the most irritating resolutions ever. Ten years ago, my T42p had 1600 x 1200. It's as if they removed a quarter of my screen and recentered it. What progress!
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sigil 14y ago
> I am contemplating ordering a T530 and perhaps an x230 in top configurations and keep them in a closet for future use. Welcome to my world. I exclusively use Thinkpad T40s, T41s, and T42s, the last few models to be manufactured by IBM prior to the 2005 selloff. (The T43 was the very last, but had more hardware issues for some reason.) Even today it's not difficult to find used models in decent condition. They last me a few years until I utterly destroy them, which is something of an inevitability given the amount and type of usage they see. When that happens, I buy another for $150 - $200, pop in the old hard drive, and I'm off. Thinkpads are amazing. Edit: While quality initially suffered in the IBM -> Lenovo handoff, I do think it recovered eventually. The x220 and x230s I've used at jobs seem just as solid.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  Do you find the screen back light inverter and/or that little ribbon cable between the base and the display are a particular cause of trouble with your T42s? But I know what you mean about the build quality.
  - sigil 14y ago
    No, haven't seen that one. The most common natural deaths for me are fan death and USB ports going out. This list of known hardware problems by Thinkpad model has proven true though: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Known_Problems http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Known_Problems Also, I'll add that Thinkpads are quite easy to repair yourself. Great instruction manuals, and markings on the case itself as to what screws to take out to access a certain part.
    - keithpeter 14y ago
      Good list http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_video_related_system_lockup_II http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_video_related_sys... I had this one on the last T42p, and a bust inverter on a previous model. Small sample thing!
stiff 14y ago
Schenker does quite nice generic laptops: http://www.mysn.de/ http://www.mysn.de/ You can do a custom configuration and for not so much money you can get a powerful CPU, fast SSD drive, lots of ports etc., and most importantly an IPS screen. The finishing quality doesn't look bad either. Example: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Quick-Review-Schenker-XMG-A722-Notebook.80223.0.html http://www.notebookcheck.net/Quick-Review-Schenker-XMG-A722-... Might not be exactly ThinkPad quality, but when they start marketing a thinner bevel as a "screen innovation" one might want to reconsider...
snaky 14y ago
Panasonic is a viable option too, with their AX, SX and NX series. With no trackpoint unfortunately, but they have a unique round trackpad with a number of useful additional functions. Real keyboard (no chicklets) and case you can jump on. And there is at least one (German!) startup (kupaworld.de/en) making (in China, of course) laptops for people who make money using computers - their first product, Kupa X15, have no keyboard although. But in 10" and 1.7lb you can get: 16:10 1920x1200 IPS 10-point multitouch and active stylus, detachable battery, Ivy Bridge i7 with 8GB RAM, dock with keyboard, extra battery, Ethernet port, VGA port, SD card slot, and USB port, modular design, BT+3G, front and rear camera, 128GB SSD, two USB 3.0, HDMI, etc. And with no marketing "features" and artificial limitations. Basically that's the way it should be these days - Lenovo is just too big to target niche customers - people interested in productivity with their laptop are minority now. That wasn't so back in X31 days, but now it is - majority of people don't know nothing about trackpoint and don't want to know. I hope such small manufacturers (design + contract manufacturing China) targeting a niche customers will arise in next couple of years.
nathan_long 14y ago
You never said exactly what you dislike about this.
efsavage 14y ago
> Does anyone want to apply to YC with a novel idea: make computers for people who make money using computers? I'm not saying it can't be done, but we're probably the worst customers. On the one side you've got people who's machines are supplied by IT and can't be too extravagant, on the other you've got people buying for themselves and wanting to spend as little as possible. What initially came to mind when you said this was "The Homer" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpPuYGPcvD4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpPuYGPcvD4
thomasjames 14y ago
HP EliteBooks also have track points with buttons... albeit four of them. And they dont have a middle click button, which is disappointing for me. But yeah, My Thinkpad is dying on me, and I am thinking of getting an X230 sooner rather than later now, too.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

kunai 14y ago

Does anyone want to apply to YC with a novel idea: make computers for people who make money using computers? I actually thought about this. A nice, rugged computer with a good keyboard, sturdy construction, great pointing stick hardware and 16:10 display. All of which ThinkPad just isn't right now. Unfortunately, my financial options and also my experience is very limited in this regard. If anyone proposes a project like this on Kickstarter, I'll be the first to throw money at it.

Stratoscope 14y ago
Unfortunately, the "great pointing stick hardware" will likely run into some IBM patents. None of the other machines with pointing sticks have ever been able to get the same natural response as a TrackPoint, I believe partly because of these patents. What a deal: Lenovo doesn't want to make professional machines any more, but they won't likely let anyone else use the TrackPoint patents.
- kunai 14y ago
  I actually used a Toshiba Tecra a long time ago (circa 2005) that had a pointing stick with response very close to a TrackPoint. I don't think it would be impossible; only difficult.
- gonzo 14y ago
  Tadpole used the same IBM device without the IBM controller (and its patent licenses). 5 man months of an excellent sw dev on an h8 uC.
- benmccann 14y ago
  Those patents are expiring soon. http://www.google.com/patents/US5521596 http://www.google.com/patents/US5521596 - Analog input device located in the primary typing area of a keyboard - Expires May 28, 2013 http://www.google.com/patents/US5489900 http://www.google.com/patents/US5489900 - Force sensitive transducer for use in a computer keyboard - Expires Jun 3, 2014

kunai 14y ago

> I am rooting for Dell here. Now when Lenovo is gone, their Precision series is probably the closest one to take advantage of this. I love the Precision line. If only they made a 14" laptop... I would never buy ThinkPads again.

yolesaber 14y ago

Have you looked into System76's machines at all? Right now I am using their Gazelle Professional model (https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp8 https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp8). I have to say it is the best damn laptop I've ever owned and this is coming from a long-time Thinkpad user

wtallis 14y ago
Aren't System76's laptops all just re-branded Clevo machines?
old-gregg 14y ago
I look at them every time I'm shopping for a laptop. They never offer anything comparable to a proper Thinkpad. The laptop you're linking to lacks nearly everything imporant: * No trackpoint * Touchpad buttons are in the wrong place (must be on top, under thumbs) * No IPS display * Keyboard is crippled. Compare to a proper keyboard [1] The #1 and #2 basicaly mean "this laptop has no mouse" Apple-style touchpad is useless for people who type a lot (you can't use them while your hands are in FJ-position). #3 means "cannot work with images with more than 65K colors". [1] Proper keyboard: http://www.notebookcheck.net/typo3temp/pics/ea701ff5cd.jpg http://www.notebookcheck.net/typo3temp/pics/ea701ff5cd.jpg Things to notice: * Giant "Esc" key * Dedicated forward/backward buttons for browsing * Full-sized Fn keys * Dedicated blocks for navigation keys * Because it's ergonomic, it's not a dumb rectangular shape. Lenovo hates this IBM design because it is more expensive to produce. Also, look at how UltraNav works: you can use the mouse by keeping your hands in a typing position (FJ). This way you can nearly instantaneously replace the previously typed word by using the trackpoint + buttons under your thumbs. This speeds up your typing or coding significantly. This gives Vim/Emacs users superpowers! :) Cheap laptops force you to move your hands a lot to switch between the mouse and keyboard.
- limmeau 14y ago
  I always hated the forward-backward buttons. In Eclipse and VS, I kept hitting them when reaching for Shift or Cursor, and ended up in a different file.
- 14y ago

ninjin 14y ago

> I am rooting for Dell here. Now when Lenovo is gone, their Precision series is probably the closest one to take advantage of this. I would hope for the same, the only problem is that there has been some worrying tendencies in the Dell camp as well. Look at the old Latitude series which was geared towards business [1]. It was solid, good keyboard, not a bundle of plastic etc. The design was new back in 2008 and now look what they turned it into [2]. It looks like a horrible mix between their all too plastic XPS series and the old Latitude. Also, doesn't it also look fat with those stupid rounded edges? Honestly, the best laptop I know of out there is the Dell Latitude 2XXX series [3]. That although ridden with plastic, a not so good keyboard and a slow CPU, it is built like a brick (like IBM/Lenovo used to make them). I am quite confident I could render someone unconscious with it and still be able to continue working using it afterwards. I need to upgrade my old Latitude within this year and I am desperate to find a good candidate, having considered the T420 I now dread the T421. Suggestions are most welcome. [1]: http://www.pclaunches.com/entry_images/0308/22/dell_latitude-e-series-thumb-450x322.jpg http://www.pclaunches.com/entry_images/0308/22/dell_latitude... [2]: http://www.digitalcityegypt.com/Files/images/634910290525410000_dell-latitude-e6420-2.jpg http://www.digitalcityegypt.com/Files/images/634910290525410... [3]: https://imageshack.us/a/img216/3950/dell2100009.jpg https://imageshack.us/a/img216/3950/dell2100009.jpg

hjalle 14y ago
What about the Dell latitude 6430u[1]? I've not seen it yet but if someone have any comments on it I'd be happy to hear! Seems like it's at least possible to get it with 1600x900. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-6430u-ultrabook/fs http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-6430u-ultrabook/f... Edit: Seems like the 1600x900 resolution is only avaialable in US, or at least not in Sweden.
- kybernetikos 14y ago
  1600 x 900, one of the most irritating resolutions ever. Ten years ago, my T42p had 1600 x 1200. It's as if they removed a quarter of my screen and recentered it. What progress!

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

sigil 14y ago

> I am contemplating ordering a T530 and perhaps an x230 in top configurations and keep them in a closet for future use. Welcome to my world. I exclusively use Thinkpad T40s, T41s, and T42s, the last few models to be manufactured by IBM prior to the 2005 selloff. (The T43 was the very last, but had more hardware issues for some reason.) Even today it's not difficult to find used models in decent condition. They last me a few years until I utterly destroy them, which is something of an inevitability given the amount and type of usage they see. When that happens, I buy another for $150 - $200, pop in the old hard drive, and I'm off. Thinkpads are amazing. Edit: While quality initially suffered in the IBM -> Lenovo handoff, I do think it recovered eventually. The x220 and x230s I've used at jobs seem just as solid.

keithpeter 14y ago
Do you find the screen back light inverter and/or that little ribbon cable between the base and the display are a particular cause of trouble with your T42s? But I know what you mean about the build quality.
- sigil 14y ago
  No, haven't seen that one. The most common natural deaths for me are fan death and USB ports going out. This list of known hardware problems by Thinkpad model has proven true though: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Known_Problems http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Known_Problems Also, I'll add that Thinkpads are quite easy to repair yourself. Great instruction manuals, and markings on the case itself as to what screws to take out to access a certain part.
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    Good list http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_video_related_system_lockup_II http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_video_related_sys... I had this one on the last T42p, and a bust inverter on a previous model. Small sample thing!

stiff 14y ago

Schenker does quite nice generic laptops: http://www.mysn.de/ http://www.mysn.de/ You can do a custom configuration and for not so much money you can get a powerful CPU, fast SSD drive, lots of ports etc., and most importantly an IPS screen. The finishing quality doesn't look bad either. Example: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Quick-Review-Schenker-XMG-A722-Notebook.80223.0.html http://www.notebookcheck.net/Quick-Review-Schenker-XMG-A722-... Might not be exactly ThinkPad quality, but when they start marketing a thinner bevel as a "screen innovation" one might want to reconsider...

snaky 14y ago

Panasonic is a viable option too, with their AX, SX and NX series. With no trackpoint unfortunately, but they have a unique round trackpad with a number of useful additional functions. Real keyboard (no chicklets) and case you can jump on. And there is at least one (German!) startup (kupaworld.de/en) making (in China, of course) laptops for people who make money using computers - their first product, Kupa X15, have no keyboard although. But in 10" and 1.7lb you can get: 16:10 1920x1200 IPS 10-point multitouch and active stylus, detachable battery, Ivy Bridge i7 with 8GB RAM, dock with keyboard, extra battery, Ethernet port, VGA port, SD card slot, and USB port, modular design, BT+3G, front and rear camera, 128GB SSD, two USB 3.0, HDMI, etc. And with no marketing "features" and artificial limitations. Basically that's the way it should be these days - Lenovo is just too big to target niche customers - people interested in productivity with their laptop are minority now. That wasn't so back in X31 days, but now it is - majority of people don't know nothing about trackpoint and don't want to know. I hope such small manufacturers (design + contract manufacturing China) targeting a niche customers will arise in next couple of years.

nathan_long 14y ago

You never said exactly what you dislike about this.

efsavage 14y ago

> Does anyone want to apply to YC with a novel idea: make computers for people who make money using computers? I'm not saying it can't be done, but we're probably the worst customers. On the one side you've got people who's machines are supplied by IT and can't be too extravagant, on the other you've got people buying for themselves and wanting to spend as little as possible. What initially came to mind when you said this was "The Homer" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpPuYGPcvD4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpPuYGPcvD4

thomasjames 14y ago

HP EliteBooks also have track points with buttons... albeit four of them. And they dont have a middle click button, which is disappointing for me. But yeah, My Thinkpad is dying on me, and I am thinking of getting an X230 sooner rather than later now, too.