4 ms·

"in my head I went, this is why the whole ms enterprise stack sucks balls." Brilliant. So, if some random programmer built some way-over-complicated Javascript

by WayneDB 14y ago

"in my head I went, this is why the whole ms enterprise stack sucks balls." Brilliant. So, if some random programmer built some way-over-complicated Javascript solution, would you think that the entire web platform "sucks balls"? "the sad part is that they actually think it's good to abstract away something really simple." Who is they? Microsoft, this random c# guy or all c# programmers? If you answer anything but "random c# guy", I'd like your evidence please. Also, let's see some of your code please. Not fizzbuzz. I wanna see some of your real life code.

pekk 14y ago
The problem isn't random programmers, it is a culture and tool ecosystem which says that this is the right way to do things. If it were just one random programmer, there would be nothing to complain about. If some guy decides to write his website in his own dialect of Visual Basic, that isn't really being inflicted on anyone but his employees. The deeply-nested StrategyFactory stuff is an infection which worst affects languages like Java and C# (recruiters call it "OOP") because those communities do not strongly reject it.
- WayneDB 14y ago
  So, you should be able to show me dozens of tools that are the default choice within these ecosystems, that make programmers build things in this way. Can you please name some tools and tell us how they say this is the right way to do things?
  - splawn 14y ago
    Why do JAVA, C# (and the like) IDE's have such complex feature sets? Is it not a reflection of the complexity that those ecosystems require for maintaining your code?
    - WayneDB 14y ago
      Which feature set? The core of these IDEs is a debugger that is highly integrated with a text editor. Is there a problem with that? IDEs often show me the files that are in the project. Another common (core) feature is code completion. Also, integration with common source control systems. Too complex yet? You didn't mention XCode. Why not? It has all of those features. So, it must be the non-core feature of IDEs that makes one seem complex and the other not. Which features are you talking about?
      - splawn 14y ago
        I concede you make a good point. Most of the features you listed I end up using via command line rather than it being integrated directly in my editor. Maybe part of what i see as complexity is just my cheese being moved. However, and correct me if im wrong, IDE's are more popular with "powerhouse" OOP languages in general. I always thought that it was because navigating these types of projects with just a simple text editor was too cumbersome without the editor being aware of context.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    Really? Eclipse, Netbeans, Maven, JUnit, JLog J2SE libraries - pretty much all of them Apache libraries Hibernate J2EE libraries The list is endless Even Google App Engine manages to be way more convoluted in Java than in Python or Go, it's not even funny
    - WayneDB 14y ago
      These are all defaults and you are forced to use them, right? Furthermore - does this really help the argument that "the whole ms stack sucks balls" or even "the whole java stack..."?
    - sukuriant 14y ago
      I use Netbeans[1] and Eclipse all the time, and I don't write Java code like that. Then again, I write GUI's by hand in swing, so .... there is that. [1] edited from Netflix. I use Netflix all the time, too!
      - raverbashing 14y ago
        Netflix? I think you mean Netbeans maybe =) I don't write java code like that as well (and I don't use swing) but sometimes is unavoidable due to the ways the libraries are structured.
rjzzleep 14y ago
so overcomplicated javascript is not overcomplicated? i just started working on microsoft enterprise garbage. ever had to deal with sharepoint, dynamics? even microsoft developers say you're doomed when you're being put on a sharepoint project. I just codereviewed code for 2 different dynamics contractors. Both highly recommended by microsoft. both of them had high levels of abstractions, but the end result was tightly coupled anyway. Their javascript was written the same way. The real joke of it was that I had never done anything of the likes. Want some of my real code from many years ago? go through mplayer/ffmpeg edit: as pekk said the problem is cultural
- saryant 14y ago
  Say what you want about the culture but I've found MS's stack to be quite good with the right team. It's got some great features. LINQ in particular springs to mind. There are plenty of terrific systems built atop that stock. StackOverflow is implemented in ASP.NET, for instance.
  - rjzzleep 14y ago
    dude! microsoft is not just enterprise. they have the biggest r&d lab with some really awesome shit going on. linq is made by the haskell guy. well the haskell guy was a microsoft guy. but you get the idea. it did not grow inside of the .net enterprise culture. it grew outside of it. I never had any qualms about c# as a language. but that's also not what we're discussing. just like f# is wonderful. but it too did not grow inside, but outside. they're being really smart about tying it into the enterprise as much as possible therefore guaranteeing it's future though.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    I agree I'll take C# over Java any day. Hands down. It has its warts, sure, but it's night and day. I can't pin it down, but the C# libraries seem much more natural to me. Of course, if the team culture is not good, it's going to be messy, either in Java, C#, Python, etc

by WayneDB 14y ago

pekk 14y ago

The problem isn't random programmers, it is a culture and tool ecosystem which says that this is the right way to do things. If it were just one random programmer, there would be nothing to complain about. If some guy decides to write his website in his own dialect of Visual Basic, that isn't really being inflicted on anyone but his employees. The deeply-nested StrategyFactory stuff is an infection which worst affects languages like Java and C# (recruiters call it "OOP") because those communities do not strongly reject it.

WayneDB 14y ago
So, you should be able to show me dozens of tools that are the default choice within these ecosystems, that make programmers build things in this way. Can you please name some tools and tell us how they say this is the right way to do things?
- splawn 14y ago
  Why do JAVA, C# (and the like) IDE's have such complex feature sets? Is it not a reflection of the complexity that those ecosystems require for maintaining your code?
  - WayneDB 14y ago
    Which feature set? The core of these IDEs is a debugger that is highly integrated with a text editor. Is there a problem with that? IDEs often show me the files that are in the project. Another common (core) feature is code completion. Also, integration with common source control systems. Too complex yet? You didn't mention XCode. Why not? It has all of those features. So, it must be the non-core feature of IDEs that makes one seem complex and the other not. Which features are you talking about?
    - splawn 14y ago
      I concede you make a good point. Most of the features you listed I end up using via command line rather than it being integrated directly in my editor. Maybe part of what i see as complexity is just my cheese being moved. However, and correct me if im wrong, IDE's are more popular with "powerhouse" OOP languages in general. I always thought that it was because navigating these types of projects with just a simple text editor was too cumbersome without the editor being aware of context.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Really? Eclipse, Netbeans, Maven, JUnit, JLog J2SE libraries - pretty much all of them Apache libraries Hibernate J2EE libraries The list is endless Even Google App Engine manages to be way more convoluted in Java than in Python or Go, it's not even funny
  - WayneDB 14y ago
    These are all defaults and you are forced to use them, right? Furthermore - does this really help the argument that "the whole ms stack sucks balls" or even "the whole java stack..."?
  - sukuriant 14y ago
    I use Netbeans[1] and Eclipse all the time, and I don't write Java code like that. Then again, I write GUI's by hand in swing, so .... there is that. [1] edited from Netflix. I use Netflix all the time, too!
    - raverbashing 14y ago
      Netflix? I think you mean Netbeans maybe =) I don't write java code like that as well (and I don't use swing) but sometimes is unavoidable due to the ways the libraries are structured.

rjzzleep 14y ago

so overcomplicated javascript is not overcomplicated? i just started working on microsoft enterprise garbage. ever had to deal with sharepoint, dynamics? even microsoft developers say you're doomed when you're being put on a sharepoint project. I just codereviewed code for 2 different dynamics contractors. Both highly recommended by microsoft. both of them had high levels of abstractions, but the end result was tightly coupled anyway. Their javascript was written the same way. The real joke of it was that I had never done anything of the likes. Want some of my real code from many years ago? go through mplayer/ffmpeg edit: as pekk said the problem is cultural

saryant 14y ago
Say what you want about the culture but I've found MS's stack to be quite good with the right team. It's got some great features. LINQ in particular springs to mind. There are plenty of terrific systems built atop that stock. StackOverflow is implemented in ASP.NET, for instance.
- rjzzleep 14y ago
  dude! microsoft is not just enterprise. they have the biggest r&d lab with some really awesome shit going on. linq is made by the haskell guy. well the haskell guy was a microsoft guy. but you get the idea. it did not grow inside of the .net enterprise culture. it grew outside of it. I never had any qualms about c# as a language. but that's also not what we're discussing. just like f# is wonderful. but it too did not grow inside, but outside. they're being really smart about tying it into the enterprise as much as possible therefore guaranteeing it's future though.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  I agree I'll take C# over Java any day. Hands down. It has its warts, sure, but it's night and day. I can't pin it down, but the C# libraries seem much more natural to me. Of course, if the team culture is not good, it's going to be messy, either in Java, C#, Python, etc