4 ms·

I'm sorry but anecdotes are evidence, just with a very small sample size. You can keep saying "it doesn't work" as many times as you like but you'll still be wr

by analog 14y ago

I'm sorry but anecdotes are evidence, just with a very small sample size. You can keep saying "it doesn't work" as many times as you like but you'll still be wrong.

Nursie 14y ago
I'm sorry but anecdotes are evidence, just with a very small sample size. OK, anecdotes are not good evidence, and cannot be used as evidence because they suffer from nearly all the problems that a good study accounts for and real evidence gathering processes account for and mitigate. Anecdotal data suffers from confirmation bias, from selection bias, it has a small enough sample size to be meaningless, and is as a result worthless. Better? You can keep saying "it doesn't work" as many times as you like but you'll still be wrong. [Citation Needed]
- analog 14y ago
  Right, but if you've tried doctors and they haven't been able to help, and if you have heard of a treatment which anecdotally works, and has no reported side effects, then why wouldn't you try it. If it works for you then you still have a sample size of one but this would be good enough.
  - Nursie 14y ago
    That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it. For instance in the case of terminal cancer, some people get ripped off by charlatans to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The anecdotal data around these assholes is all overwhelmingly positive and claims no side effects, because people who are ripped off and then die tend not to talk about it but the very few who survive for reasons unknown shout a lot. The reason you might not try it is because you'd be bankrupting the family you're going to leave behind, or funneling good-will donations to a conman. There are numerous examples of alt-med 'cures' that are dreadfully harmful (black salve, sodium hypochlorite enemas). This idea that CAM is fine to try if you're out of options because it has no side effects is itself very dodgy. Hell, even acupuncture carries some elevated risk of infection because you're pushing needles through the skin. But if it was something minor, cheap and there really were no side effects, sure - why not? --edit-- But telling if there really are no side effects does require some basis in provable fact, or you're just necking unknown quantities of unknown stuff, which may not be a great plan.
    - analog 14y ago
      "That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it." This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it. There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head,
      - Nursie 14y ago
        "This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it." Absolutely, but medical treatments should have reliable data available (not saying they always do). In contrast alt med never does (that's what makes it alt), but instead has cheerleaders and woo. "There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head," Yup, and now we know the harms and don't use these things. (What's your point?). Whereas with alt-med this doesn't seem to happen.
      - Nursie 14y ago
        "There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head," I also want to say that this is pretty disingenuous as a statement because I named harmful CAM treatments in response to your question "if you have heard of a treatment which anecdotally works, and has no reported side effects, then why wouldn't you try it?". I was pointing out that alt med really cannot claim to have no side effects. It often does claim this, but it cannot. Many medicines have dreadful side-effects, yes, even the ones we still use, but these are measured and quantified and (in theory) the treatments are only used if the main effect is worth it. With alt med there often are side effects and there is no proof that any of it works, by definition.
- analog 14y ago
  Citation provided. You'd be crazy to only use alt med for cancer treatment, but as an addition studies have shown it to be effective. http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/naturopathic-medicine http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/com...
  - Nursie 14y ago
    "Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems." I wouldn't call that supporting evidence that CAM works, in fact I'd say that whole page doesn't give it any support at all, nor does it excuse naturopathy from having harmful effects - "Substances used in alternative medical practices may have not been thoroughly tested to find out how they interact with medicines, foods, or dietary supplements. Even though some reports of interactions and harmful effects may be published, full studies of interactions and effects are not often available. There may also be lesser-known methods used, other than the ones discussed here, which could potentially cause harm. Because of these limitations, any information on ill effects below should be considered incomplete."
    - analog 14y ago
      Nice use of selective quoting. Heres another. "Other aspects of naturopathic medicine, like healthy nutrition, have been shown to lower the risk of illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Some aspects of naturopathic medicine may be useful when used along with conventional medical treatment." Like I said, you're simply choosing to ignore the evidence. If you'd like to stay ignorant of it then that's your right and your privilege.
      - Nursie 14y ago
        Claiming decent nutrition or exercise as an aspect of CAM is disingenuous at best, and at worst a way to propagate charlatanry. "Look, we do this common sense thing, therefore the rest of our stuff must be true!" Eating well, getting rest and exercise, these things are not alt med, not naturopathic, not 'integrative', they are well supported aspects of evidence based medicine.

by analog 14y ago

I'm sorry but anecdotes are evidence, just with a very small sample size. You can keep saying "it doesn't work" as many times as you like but you'll still be wrong.

Nursie 14y ago

I'm sorry but anecdotes are evidence, just with a very small sample size. OK, anecdotes are not good evidence, and cannot be used as evidence because they suffer from nearly all the problems that a good study accounts for and real evidence gathering processes account for and mitigate. Anecdotal data suffers from confirmation bias, from selection bias, it has a small enough sample size to be meaningless, and is as a result worthless. Better? You can keep saying "it doesn't work" as many times as you like but you'll still be wrong. [Citation Needed]

analog 14y ago
Right, but if you've tried doctors and they haven't been able to help, and if you have heard of a treatment which anecdotally works, and has no reported side effects, then why wouldn't you try it. If it works for you then you still have a sample size of one but this would be good enough.
- Nursie 14y ago
  That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it. For instance in the case of terminal cancer, some people get ripped off by charlatans to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The anecdotal data around these assholes is all overwhelmingly positive and claims no side effects, because people who are ripped off and then die tend not to talk about it but the very few who survive for reasons unknown shout a lot. The reason you might not try it is because you'd be bankrupting the family you're going to leave behind, or funneling good-will donations to a conman. There are numerous examples of alt-med 'cures' that are dreadfully harmful (black salve, sodium hypochlorite enemas). This idea that CAM is fine to try if you're out of options because it has no side effects is itself very dodgy. Hell, even acupuncture carries some elevated risk of infection because you're pushing needles through the skin. But if it was something minor, cheap and there really were no side effects, sure - why not? --edit-- But telling if there really are no side effects does require some basis in provable fact, or you're just necking unknown quantities of unknown stuff, which may not be a great plan.
  - analog 14y ago
    "That depends on what the condition is, how trustworthy the anecdotes are and how much someone was trying to charge me for it." This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it. There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head,
    - Nursie 14y ago
      "This is true for any medical treatment. You weigh up the costs, risks, benefits and then you decide if you want to go ahead with it." Absolutely, but medical treatments should have reliable data available (not saying they always do). In contrast alt med never does (that's what makes it alt), but instead has cheerleaders and woo. "There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head," Yup, and now we know the harms and don't use these things. (What's your point?). Whereas with alt-med this doesn't seem to happen.
    - Nursie 14y ago
      "There are also numerous examples of normal medicine cures that have been dreadfully harmful. Thalidomide and SSRIs to name a couple off the top of my head," I also want to say that this is pretty disingenuous as a statement because I named harmful CAM treatments in response to your question "if you have heard of a treatment which anecdotally works, and has no reported side effects, then why wouldn't you try it?". I was pointing out that alt med really cannot claim to have no side effects. It often does claim this, but it cannot. Many medicines have dreadful side-effects, yes, even the ones we still use, but these are measured and quantified and (in theory) the treatments are only used if the main effect is worth it. With alt med there often are side effects and there is no proof that any of it works, by definition.
analog 14y ago
Citation provided. You'd be crazy to only use alt med for cancer treatment, but as an addition studies have shown it to be effective. http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/naturopathic-medicine http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/com...
- Nursie 14y ago
  "Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems." I wouldn't call that supporting evidence that CAM works, in fact I'd say that whole page doesn't give it any support at all, nor does it excuse naturopathy from having harmful effects - "Substances used in alternative medical practices may have not been thoroughly tested to find out how they interact with medicines, foods, or dietary supplements. Even though some reports of interactions and harmful effects may be published, full studies of interactions and effects are not often available. There may also be lesser-known methods used, other than the ones discussed here, which could potentially cause harm. Because of these limitations, any information on ill effects below should be considered incomplete."
  - analog 14y ago
    Nice use of selective quoting. Heres another. "Other aspects of naturopathic medicine, like healthy nutrition, have been shown to lower the risk of illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Some aspects of naturopathic medicine may be useful when used along with conventional medical treatment." Like I said, you're simply choosing to ignore the evidence. If you'd like to stay ignorant of it then that's your right and your privilege.
    - Nursie 14y ago
      Claiming decent nutrition or exercise as an aspect of CAM is disingenuous at best, and at worst a way to propagate charlatanry. "Look, we do this common sense thing, therefore the rest of our stuff must be true!" Eating well, getting rest and exercise, these things are not alt med, not naturopathic, not 'integrative', they are well supported aspects of evidence based medicine.