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The numbers will continue to decline, the student body is growing larger and larger every year. My year is the largest freshman class ever...until next year. T

by awad 18y ago

The numbers will continue to decline, the student body is growing larger and larger every year. My year is the largest freshman class ever...until next year. The pressure put on students these days is insane. It's a non stop competition since conception.

tokenadult 18y ago
My year is the largest freshman class ever...until next year. Actually, I think the number of dorm spaces for freshmen puts a hard limit on the number of new students at Harvard each year. Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly: are you saying you were admitted in the most recent announced new class, the class that entered in fall 2008 (Harvard class of '12)? Or maybe you mean something else. My prediction is that the number of applicants will still go up next year, but the number of admitted students will be set so that the number of ENROLLED students in 2010 is as near as possible to the number last year and this year.
- awad 18y ago
  I meant overall class size (for the entire country). As far as I am aware, the class of 2012 is the largest in history thus far.
  - tokenadult 18y ago
    Oh, okay, now I'm clear about what you meant. Thanks. I've written up a little FAQ on college application demographics; please let me know what you think. Population trends in the United States are not the only issue influencing the competitiveness of college admission here. The children already born show us what the expected number of high school students are in various years, but the number of high school students in the United States, which is expected to begin declining in a few years, isn't the whole story. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/education/09admissions.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/education/09admissions.htm... First of all, if more students who begin high school go on to college, there will be more applicants to college even with a declining number of high school students. And that is the trend in the United States and worldwide. Second, colleges in the United States accept applications from all over the world, so it is quite possible that demographic trends in the United States will not be the main influence on how many students apply to college. The cohorts of high-school-age students are still increasing in size in some countries (NOT most of Europe). Third, even if the number of applicants to colleges overall stays the same, or even declines, the number of applicants to the most competitive colleges may still increase. The trend around the world is a "flight to quality" of students trying to get into the best college they can in increasing numbers, and increasing their consensus about which colleges to put at the top of their application lists. I do not expect college admission to be any easier for my youngest child than for my oldest child, even though she is part of a smaller birth cohort in the United States. And now I would add to this that at the very most selective colleges that have just announced new financial aid plans, next year's (and the following year's) crush of applicants will be larger than ever. When colleges that are already acknowledged to be great colleges start reducing their net cost down to what the majority of families in the United States can afford, those colleges will receive more applications from all parts of the United States, and very likely from all over the world. The Economist magazine published a brief article about these trends in April 2008. http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11058525&CFID=4596233&CFTOKEN=12382953 http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=...
    - awad 18y ago
      Those are all very good points, especially the last two. The rush for quality can only go up. And now, it's within anyone's means, provided they are accepted.
jacobolus 18y ago
> The pressure put on students these days is insane. I'd argue it's mostly self-imposed. > It's a non stop competition since conception. "Non-stop competition" against what? Most of the students in the harder courses care more about helping each-other understand difficult material than about competing.
- endtime 18y ago
  >I'd argue it's mostly self-imposed. Could you explain why you think that? Is there evidence that shows that students who don't work as hard have an equal chance of getting into top schools? >"Non-stop competition" against what? Most of the students in the harder courses care more about helping each-other understand difficult material than about competing. I've had that experience at Stanford, though I've heard it's not like that at some places (e.g. Berkeley, and I was told so by someone who did his undergrad there). But he's talking about competition to get in, not competition once there.
  - jacobolus 18y ago
    I think there's some difference between "work hard" and "think of school as a competitive endeavor".
- awad 18y ago
  >"Non-stop competition" against what? Most of the students in the harder courses care more about helping each-other understand difficult material than about competing. I was referring to the competition to get into the coveted few spots available at the top schools in the country. Granted, it's always been competitive, but it only gets more competitive with larger and larger class sizes
  - jacobolus 18y ago
    Ah, fair enough. A few things: First, such competition is on such a massive scale that local competition against classmates, &c., is harmful. Indeed, I think even thinking about college admissions as zero-sum is counterproductive. I also still think most of such pressure and competition are self imposed, and frankly often a misdirection of effort and attention: students who care about learning for its own sake and spend effort on what they're curious about and have enough free time to pursue those interests (clearly some who have a language barrier, and must take part time jobs to feed younger siblings, etc. are at a disadvantage here) will manage to get into a decent college somewhere (there are so many fantastic ones!). Then again, I'm rather less motivated by grades/prestige/promises of future salary/etc. than most students around here.

by awad 18y ago

tokenadult 18y ago

My year is the largest freshman class ever...until next year. Actually, I think the number of dorm spaces for freshmen puts a hard limit on the number of new students at Harvard each year. Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly: are you saying you were admitted in the most recent announced new class, the class that entered in fall 2008 (Harvard class of '12)? Or maybe you mean something else. My prediction is that the number of applicants will still go up next year, but the number of admitted students will be set so that the number of ENROLLED students in 2010 is as near as possible to the number last year and this year.

awad 18y ago
I meant overall class size (for the entire country). As far as I am aware, the class of 2012 is the largest in history thus far.
- tokenadult 18y ago
  Oh, okay, now I'm clear about what you meant. Thanks. I've written up a little FAQ on college application demographics; please let me know what you think. Population trends in the United States are not the only issue influencing the competitiveness of college admission here. The children already born show us what the expected number of high school students are in various years, but the number of high school students in the United States, which is expected to begin declining in a few years, isn't the whole story. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/education/09admissions.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/education/09admissions.htm... First of all, if more students who begin high school go on to college, there will be more applicants to college even with a declining number of high school students. And that is the trend in the United States and worldwide. Second, colleges in the United States accept applications from all over the world, so it is quite possible that demographic trends in the United States will not be the main influence on how many students apply to college. The cohorts of high-school-age students are still increasing in size in some countries (NOT most of Europe). Third, even if the number of applicants to colleges overall stays the same, or even declines, the number of applicants to the most competitive colleges may still increase. The trend around the world is a "flight to quality" of students trying to get into the best college they can in increasing numbers, and increasing their consensus about which colleges to put at the top of their application lists. I do not expect college admission to be any easier for my youngest child than for my oldest child, even though she is part of a smaller birth cohort in the United States. And now I would add to this that at the very most selective colleges that have just announced new financial aid plans, next year's (and the following year's) crush of applicants will be larger than ever. When colleges that are already acknowledged to be great colleges start reducing their net cost down to what the majority of families in the United States can afford, those colleges will receive more applications from all parts of the United States, and very likely from all over the world. The Economist magazine published a brief article about these trends in April 2008. http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11058525&CFID=4596233&CFTOKEN=12382953 http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=...
  - awad 18y ago
    Those are all very good points, especially the last two. The rush for quality can only go up. And now, it's within anyone's means, provided they are accepted.

jacobolus 18y ago

> The pressure put on students these days is insane. I'd argue it's mostly self-imposed. > It's a non stop competition since conception. "Non-stop competition" against what? Most of the students in the harder courses care more about helping each-other understand difficult material than about competing.

endtime 18y ago
>I'd argue it's mostly self-imposed. Could you explain why you think that? Is there evidence that shows that students who don't work as hard have an equal chance of getting into top schools? >"Non-stop competition" against what? Most of the students in the harder courses care more about helping each-other understand difficult material than about competing. I've had that experience at Stanford, though I've heard it's not like that at some places (e.g. Berkeley, and I was told so by someone who did his undergrad there). But he's talking about competition to get in, not competition once there.
- jacobolus 18y ago
  I think there's some difference between "work hard" and "think of school as a competitive endeavor".
awad 18y ago
>"Non-stop competition" against what? Most of the students in the harder courses care more about helping each-other understand difficult material than about competing. I was referring to the competition to get into the coveted few spots available at the top schools in the country. Granted, it's always been competitive, but it only gets more competitive with larger and larger class sizes
- jacobolus 18y ago
  Ah, fair enough. A few things: First, such competition is on such a massive scale that local competition against classmates, &c., is harmful. Indeed, I think even thinking about college admissions as zero-sum is counterproductive. I also still think most of such pressure and competition are self imposed, and frankly often a misdirection of effort and attention: students who care about learning for its own sake and spend effort on what they're curious about and have enough free time to pursue those interests (clearly some who have a language barrier, and must take part time jobs to feed younger siblings, etc. are at a disadvantage here) will manage to get into a decent college somewhere (there are so many fantastic ones!). Then again, I'm rather less motivated by grades/prestige/promises of future salary/etc. than most students around here.