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Most sexually reproducing organisms are genetically unique. That's hardly a basis for a moral judgement. Ethics and morality in philosophy are generally based

by aneth4 14y ago

Most sexually reproducing organisms are genetically unique. That's hardly a basis for a moral judgement. Ethics and morality in philosophy are generally based on minimizing the experience and perception of suffering, not promoting diversity - though diversity can certainly help reduce suffering.

marknadal 14y ago
Please don't make generalized statements that are not true, it is a key indication you have no expertise in the field. Disclaimer: I have no expertise in the field of ethics and morality. My girlfriend is however (has worked under Paul Bloom at Yale specifically in moral development, and is in a fully funded PhD program for moral development), and "minimizing the experience and perception of suffering" is not the "general basis". Note: The author of the parent comment was not trying to make a moral judgement, but a biological and evolutionary one. That abortion is mathematically not beneficial - so there is no need to make a moral argument when there is a scientific one. (That is, not to say, that a moral one ought not be made.)
- aneth4 14y ago
  From the second sentence of the Wikipedia article on ethics, they quote an "expert" (i.e. someone with "expertise") defining ethics as "a set of concepts and principles that guide us in determining what behavior helps or harms sentient creatures". Certainly you can argue about a billion types of ethical frameworks, some of which may differ from this statement, and you can argue about the definition of ethics and morality. The prevailing basis of morality and ethics is most certainly minimizing suffering. Without sentient experience, ethics are meaningless. That's why in most frameworks we don't worry about the treatment of non-sentient things outside the context of the sentient experience of them, and we debate whether ethics apply to things based on whether they are sentient. Notwithstanding issues relating to these objects relationships to other sentient beings, we don't worry whether it's ethical to sit on a chair or pee in a toilet. The parent comment was drawing an ethical conclusion from a biological fact, and certainly did not say anything about abortion being or not being "mathematically beneficial," whatever that means.
  - marknadal 14y ago
    The unedited version of wikipedia says something different (that is, if we really are using wikipedia as proof). I am sure you were discontent with the summary, and had to scroll down to some other section which was closer to your bias. I am also not sure how you can claim to know that the author /was/ drawing a moral conclusion, when he (just as you note about math) never said anything about it. You asserted morality to trivialize his comment, I was merely pointing out the logical error in jumping from "biology and genetics" to "morality". Throw morality out the door, and the point still remains.
    - aneth4 14y ago
      Unedited version of wikipedia? No idea what you are talking about. Isn't wikipedia all edits? Are you implying I edited wikipedia? I scrolled down to the part titled "Defining ethics," which happened to be the first section, thinking that would be applicable to defining ethics. If you read author's comments in the thread, you will see he is clearly making the point that destroying a zygote is a moral issue, as he says: > It's the destroying of a genetically unique individual human that is the issue in response to a question about whether destroying a zygote is "wrong". Throw morality out the door, and he is stating that a zygote is genetically unique for some strange reason in a thread about the morality of abortion. Besides, his implicit point is also wrong - that a zygote is distinctive in being genetically unique. Each sperm is also genetically unique, so it's a rather inapplicable statement to the context of the thread, unless masturbation is also a sin against the universe.
      - marknadal 14y ago
        Why did you not like the definition at the top? Instead scrolling to the other? Oh, right, was that the thread I replied to and then got invisibly downvoted without an explanation? (If it was you, I'd love to hear your response to the post. I assume it wasn't you, since you've consistently been replying to my other ones.) Maybe I'm too ignorant, but I don't understand how if one is viewing the subject from a evolutionary genetic perspective, why it is wrong to say that mechanisms that go against evolutionary development (abortion) are wrong. This seems reflexive. Like, he did not bring up the soul, or feelings, or religion. Just genetics. Can one not make "right/wrong" judgements from a genetic perspective? (I'm not a biologist, so I wouldn't know). A sperm, in terms of science, is useless without an egg. A species, in terms of science, is extinct without offspring. I don't care how much you masturbate, the universe doesn't care about sin but our species cares about zygotes and genetic diversity.

by aneth4 14y ago

marknadal 14y ago

Please don't make generalized statements that are not true, it is a key indication you have no expertise in the field. Disclaimer: I have no expertise in the field of ethics and morality. My girlfriend is however (has worked under Paul Bloom at Yale specifically in moral development, and is in a fully funded PhD program for moral development), and "minimizing the experience and perception of suffering" is not the "general basis". Note: The author of the parent comment was not trying to make a moral judgement, but a biological and evolutionary one. That abortion is mathematically not beneficial - so there is no need to make a moral argument when there is a scientific one. (That is, not to say, that a moral one ought not be made.)

aneth4 14y ago
From the second sentence of the Wikipedia article on ethics, they quote an "expert" (i.e. someone with "expertise") defining ethics as "a set of concepts and principles that guide us in determining what behavior helps or harms sentient creatures". Certainly you can argue about a billion types of ethical frameworks, some of which may differ from this statement, and you can argue about the definition of ethics and morality. The prevailing basis of morality and ethics is most certainly minimizing suffering. Without sentient experience, ethics are meaningless. That's why in most frameworks we don't worry about the treatment of non-sentient things outside the context of the sentient experience of them, and we debate whether ethics apply to things based on whether they are sentient. Notwithstanding issues relating to these objects relationships to other sentient beings, we don't worry whether it's ethical to sit on a chair or pee in a toilet. The parent comment was drawing an ethical conclusion from a biological fact, and certainly did not say anything about abortion being or not being "mathematically beneficial," whatever that means.
- marknadal 14y ago
  The unedited version of wikipedia says something different (that is, if we really are using wikipedia as proof). I am sure you were discontent with the summary, and had to scroll down to some other section which was closer to your bias. I am also not sure how you can claim to know that the author /was/ drawing a moral conclusion, when he (just as you note about math) never said anything about it. You asserted morality to trivialize his comment, I was merely pointing out the logical error in jumping from "biology and genetics" to "morality". Throw morality out the door, and the point still remains.
  - aneth4 14y ago
    Unedited version of wikipedia? No idea what you are talking about. Isn't wikipedia all edits? Are you implying I edited wikipedia? I scrolled down to the part titled "Defining ethics," which happened to be the first section, thinking that would be applicable to defining ethics. If you read author's comments in the thread, you will see he is clearly making the point that destroying a zygote is a moral issue, as he says: > It's the destroying of a genetically unique individual human that is the issue in response to a question about whether destroying a zygote is "wrong". Throw morality out the door, and he is stating that a zygote is genetically unique for some strange reason in a thread about the morality of abortion. Besides, his implicit point is also wrong - that a zygote is distinctive in being genetically unique. Each sperm is also genetically unique, so it's a rather inapplicable statement to the context of the thread, unless masturbation is also a sin against the universe.
    - marknadal 14y ago
      Why did you not like the definition at the top? Instead scrolling to the other? Oh, right, was that the thread I replied to and then got invisibly downvoted without an explanation? (If it was you, I'd love to hear your response to the post. I assume it wasn't you, since you've consistently been replying to my other ones.) Maybe I'm too ignorant, but I don't understand how if one is viewing the subject from a evolutionary genetic perspective, why it is wrong to say that mechanisms that go against evolutionary development (abortion) are wrong. This seems reflexive. Like, he did not bring up the soul, or feelings, or religion. Just genetics. Can one not make "right/wrong" judgements from a genetic perspective? (I'm not a biologist, so I wouldn't know). A sperm, in terms of science, is useless without an egg. A species, in terms of science, is extinct without offspring. I don't care how much you masturbate, the universe doesn't care about sin but our species cares about zygotes and genetic diversity.