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Neither your criterion, nor the pain criterion, are meaningful unless you believe in supernatural things like gods or souls. Believing in the supernatural witho
by A1kmm 14y ago
Neither your criterion, nor the pain criterion, are meaningful unless you believe in supernatural things like gods or souls. Believing in the supernatural without evidence is not what I would call rational - if you believe that, why not also believe in pixies in your garden, or Russell's Teapot?
Humans are just self-replicating collections of atoms that emerged through chance and evolution, and pain is just an emergent phenomenon formed by electrical impulses travelling over neurons to signal things that we evolved to avoid. So there is no absolute moral reason to protect the coherence of a particular collection of atoms over another, or to favour a doctrine of hedonism over pain.
Ultimately, to optimise for something, we need a criterion on which to optimise. For the above reasons, I consider preserving human biodiversity, or some kind of hedonic pleasure-pain balance as a fairly meaningless thing to pick as a fundamental thing to optimise for in the scheme of things (although it may emerge as a result of another more meaningful optimality criterion).
I consider the diversity of information / knowledge (that is, information that encodes something true about the world, not just random entropy) recorded in the universe in a form that can be processed by intelligently acting constructions to be a more fundamental thing to optimise for. Obviously, picking what to optimise for is completely arbitrary - it is used to justify everything, but it is like an axiom - there is nothing else to justify it in terms of.
Optimising for such knowledge means protecting the intellectual independence of constructions that create, process, and support the construction of such knowledge. Since this is primarily humans at the moment, this means ensuring that humans are not oppressed. Pain and fear of death are means of oppression of humans, and so it makes sense to ensure that living, thinking humans capable of knowing fear and feeling oppressed do not have to fear that they will be subjected to arbitrary death or pain for their intellectual activities.
One way to do this is to strictly enforce a no humans killing humans older then some certain amount of time after conception. If the amount of time after conception is too high, an age at which the person can know that they are at risk of death and fear it, then it will be oppressive. However, an embryo or fetus is very unlikely to be know that abortion exists, or to do anything differently to avoid it, and therefore abortion cannot be oppressive like murder or torture is. Anyone capable of knowing about abortion is too old to be killed deliberately by it.
- jonah 14y ago> an age at which the person can know that they are at risk > of death and fear it, then it will be oppressive No one would really know about or have reason to fear getting killed for at least a few years after birth at the earliest...
- A1kmm 14y agoPerhaps... but birth is at least a bright line with a clear definition, and people are less likely to fear a slippery slope. If 'post-natal abortion' was allowed, I think people might fear a slippery slope where the deadline got later and later (and if it wasn't met with condemnation, some governments might even try to push the deadline out late enough to be oppressive).
- marknadal 14y ago1. Red Herring, Straw man. Please do not commit a red herring and a straw man by arbitrarily assuming that it would "require gods or souls" without providing any logical reason as to why it would. 2. Combinatorics, Not Morality. Genetic uniquness is the complete antithesis of a "moral, supernatural, superstitious, spiritual" judgement - it is instead a cold hard evolutionary reason - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5393246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5393246 in these comments for why. In fact, you later support this - as noted below. 3. Pain, Fear, Death, and your Contradiction. You assert that "oppressing and killing humans" is bad. Then you invent a new criteria - not based on oppressing and killing humans, but just whether they know they are being killed and oppressed. This has the following errors: A. It contradicts your objective criterion of information. (Because it logically has to, as seen by 2) B. It is more subjective, because it depends upon the human being aware of their oppression/death. C. Not all humans are aware of their oppression or death (gunshot from behind) - your standard would then mean it is okay to let all those people be oppressed and die. I do not think that was what you were going for. (Note: this sounds like a ridiculous argument, and it is because I'm intentionally pointing out the rational absurdity of your vague criterion.) D. You then conveniently "oppress" a human embryo by assuming that it is indifferent to dying - despite that its biological function is to keep itself alive (whether conscious or not). E. Yes, so per your very own criterion, there would be no problem with defining that line as "0 days after conception" - so why not? Better safe than sorry.