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If you want to use metrics, that's fine. If not: well, whatever works for you, works for you. Obviously 37signals is a success, and they design on impulse. They

by unalone 18y ago

If you want to use metrics, that's fine. If not: well, whatever works for you, works for you. Obviously 37signals is a success, and they design on impulse. They make things that "feel good". That is a perfectly fine way to design, especially if you have experience with designing. Copyblogger is everything that's wrong with blogging. They take something that should be intricate and personal and try to turn it into a generic "writing copy" style. Is there any blogger worth anything at all that ever got advice from Copyblogger? Because when I read blogs, I go for the ones that don't sound like they're working from a stencil.

ryanwaggoner 18y ago
If you want to use metrics, that's fine. If not: well, whatever works for you, works for you. Obviously 37signals is a success, and they design on impulse. Is 37signals a success because they design on impulse, or in spite of it? I'm sorry, but I have yet to hear a solid argument that ignoring easy-to-capture metrics is better business. I'm not talking about anything esoteric, I'm talking about core business metrics, like the number of people who sign up for your service. If you implement a new design "on impulse" and your signups drop by 90%, your impulse was wrong, no matter how much you like the design or how good it feels to you. Even if you're still profitable after the drop (and thus "a success"), that doesn't mean that you made the right decision.
- unalone 18y ago
  I'm sorry, but I have yet to hear a solid argument that ignoring easy-to-capture metrics is better business. I'm not talking about anything esoteric, I'm talking about core business metrics, like the number of people who sign up for your service. That's because a lot of people, namely the intuitive sort, don't track that stuff enough for there to be a good counterargument. That said: intuition has long been a part of design. Architects don't design buildings according to a numbers game: there's a part of the process that's wholly creative. Obviously, artists don't rely on metrics. They go with their gut. Numbers can show some things, but not always. Would you say that Rotten Tomatoes, by being fair and balanced, is really showing us the best movies? Is Toy Story 2 the best movie ever made? According to their reviews it is. According to ticket sales Titanic is the best movie ever. Are either of those metrics true? If I make a movie expressly intending to score better numbers than those movies, am I doing justice to a movie? Get rid of this "right decision" argument. Past a very basic point, that's all subjective. There is certainly an objective layer design, but past that it's a matter of "like" and "don't like." The argument is like the Mac versus Linux argument, where one side says they "feel" better and the other side brings up numbers. The numbers are accurate, but to assume that the other side has no argument merely because they base opinions on intuition is stupid. (By the way: there's more to a business than number of users. I'd rather have a site that had a very bright, small userbase than a site with a lot of users that I personally didn't like. Hacker News versus Digg, for instance.)
  - whughes 18y ago
    Hacker News isn't a business. It's a site. A business has to make a profit.
    - unalone 18y ago
      But 37signals is making a profit. Quite a lot of a profit. So after they're making money, isn't it their choice whether or not to follow their gut? Obviously the results are working for them.
      - ryanwaggoner 18y ago
        Of course it's their choice. That doesn't mean it's the optimal choice or one to be admired.
        unalone 18y ago
        Yeah, I get that. The problem is that "optimal" is misleading, because making money isn't the only goal of opening a business. Would you say that David Lynch is a suboptimal director? His movies aren't enormous hits. He hasn't won for Best Movie. But those aren't his goals. Similarly, sometimes the people developing a site have more at stake than maximizing profits. Sometimes they want to make gorgeous web pages or gorgeous processes. And there's no optimal procedure for that. Some people look at it another way. The 37s team obviously treats design as a sort of art rather than an exercise in optimization. As it happens, they make better products (in my opinion) than the people who go the other route. So they serve as a sort of inspiration. That's my point. The argument is not entirely meaningful, because there are two things happening at once, and you can measure the one but not the other.
      - whughes 18y ago
        But not all designs are equal in terms of profit yielded. A business which chooses a design that produces more profit than another design will have more profit. That business will therefore be more successful than one which chooses a less profitable design based on their gut.
ryanwaggoner 18y ago
37signals uses testing for copywriting (headlines, specifically), a creative process. Do you think that's a mistake? http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1525-writing-decisions-headline-tests-on-the-highrise-signup-page http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1525-writing-decisions-he...
- unalone 18y ago
  No! Nor do I think that it would necessarily be a mistake if they did it the other way. My idea is that what works for them, works. If they think copywriting tests help, then by all means they should go ahead - and apparently it worked for them.

by unalone 18y ago

ryanwaggoner 18y ago

If you want to use metrics, that's fine. If not: well, whatever works for you, works for you. Obviously 37signals is a success, and they design on impulse. Is 37signals a success because they design on impulse, or in spite of it? I'm sorry, but I have yet to hear a solid argument that ignoring easy-to-capture metrics is better business. I'm not talking about anything esoteric, I'm talking about core business metrics, like the number of people who sign up for your service. If you implement a new design "on impulse" and your signups drop by 90%, your impulse was wrong, no matter how much you like the design or how good it feels to you. Even if you're still profitable after the drop (and thus "a success"), that doesn't mean that you made the right decision.

unalone 18y ago
I'm sorry, but I have yet to hear a solid argument that ignoring easy-to-capture metrics is better business. I'm not talking about anything esoteric, I'm talking about core business metrics, like the number of people who sign up for your service. That's because a lot of people, namely the intuitive sort, don't track that stuff enough for there to be a good counterargument. That said: intuition has long been a part of design. Architects don't design buildings according to a numbers game: there's a part of the process that's wholly creative. Obviously, artists don't rely on metrics. They go with their gut. Numbers can show some things, but not always. Would you say that Rotten Tomatoes, by being fair and balanced, is really showing us the best movies? Is Toy Story 2 the best movie ever made? According to their reviews it is. According to ticket sales Titanic is the best movie ever. Are either of those metrics true? If I make a movie expressly intending to score better numbers than those movies, am I doing justice to a movie? Get rid of this "right decision" argument. Past a very basic point, that's all subjective. There is certainly an objective layer design, but past that it's a matter of "like" and "don't like." The argument is like the Mac versus Linux argument, where one side says they "feel" better and the other side brings up numbers. The numbers are accurate, but to assume that the other side has no argument merely because they base opinions on intuition is stupid. (By the way: there's more to a business than number of users. I'd rather have a site that had a very bright, small userbase than a site with a lot of users that I personally didn't like. Hacker News versus Digg, for instance.)
- whughes 18y ago
  Hacker News isn't a business. It's a site. A business has to make a profit.
  - unalone 18y ago
    But 37signals is making a profit. Quite a lot of a profit. So after they're making money, isn't it their choice whether or not to follow their gut? Obviously the results are working for them.
    - ryanwaggoner 18y ago
      Of course it's their choice. That doesn't mean it's the optimal choice or one to be admired.
      - unalone 18y ago
        Yeah, I get that. The problem is that "optimal" is misleading, because making money isn't the only goal of opening a business. Would you say that David Lynch is a suboptimal director? His movies aren't enormous hits. He hasn't won for Best Movie. But those aren't his goals. Similarly, sometimes the people developing a site have more at stake than maximizing profits. Sometimes they want to make gorgeous web pages or gorgeous processes. And there's no optimal procedure for that. Some people look at it another way. The 37s team obviously treats design as a sort of art rather than an exercise in optimization. As it happens, they make better products (in my opinion) than the people who go the other route. So they serve as a sort of inspiration. That's my point. The argument is not entirely meaningful, because there are two things happening at once, and you can measure the one but not the other.
    - whughes 18y ago
      But not all designs are equal in terms of profit yielded. A business which chooses a design that produces more profit than another design will have more profit. That business will therefore be more successful than one which chooses a less profitable design based on their gut.

ryanwaggoner 18y ago

37signals uses testing for copywriting (headlines, specifically), a creative process. Do you think that's a mistake? http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1525-writing-decisions-headline-tests-on-the-highrise-signup-page http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1525-writing-decisions-he...

unalone 18y ago
No! Nor do I think that it would necessarily be a mistake if they did it the other way. My idea is that what works for them, works. If they think copywriting tests help, then by all means they should go ahead - and apparently it worked for them.