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> It looks like C++ is getting some traction That's some LOL-worthy understatement right there.

by tobinfricke 14y ago

adamnemecek 14y ago
He's probably talking about FOSS projects where C++ is still very uncool.
- sho_hn 14y ago
  The most productive FOSS communities in terms of loc and number-of-projects (KDE and Mozilla) produce primarily C++ code.
  - adamnemecek 14y ago
    Those are also exceptions. For KDE, it was probably because they were stuck with whatever Qt was written in. For Mozilla, I'm not sure. Possibly because C++ has had better support on Windows? You don't agree that there is a strong sense of anti-C++ sentiments in the FOSS community? ASAIK both Linus and Stallman hate C++ with passion.
    - FooBarWidget 14y ago
      KDE didn't use C++ because they were "stuck" with it. Talk to any KDE developer and they will tell you all about KDE's "superior C++ based technology" and how it's better than gtk/gobject. They do have a lot of nice stuff; with GObject there's just so much boilerplate.
      - adamnemecek 14y ago
        I meant that they were stuck with it in the sense that any other choice would be insane. Not stuck with it in the sense that they would want to switch to something else but they won't because of Qt. There are no other choices. Also, at no point did I make a comparison between GTK and KDE.
      - omaranto 14y ago
        You mean with GObject there's a lot of boilerplate if you use it from C, but it's supposed to be pretty nice from Vala.
    - sho_hn 14y ago
      No, I never got that feeling. I think there's a sub-culture of systems-level programmers that are skeptical of C++ (sometimes for reasons I can respect as pragmatic and reasonable, cf. Linus), but the FOSS community is a lot larger than systems-level programming. In the areas I've dabbled in - primarily the desktop - C++ is generally seen as a viable choice outside the G* isle, and even there you can find some significant exceptions (the de-facto FOSS vector graphics app, Inkscape, uses GTK+ and is written in C++). And speaking as a KDE developer, I don't think I've ever met one of us who feels we're "stuck with C++". We're certainly critical of some of the warts of the language, and the community certainly includes folks who prefer and care strongly about some of the other languages we produce or have bindings for, and we're doing a lot of JavaScript on top of C++ foundations lately, but the overall sentiment is that in the grand scheme of things, C++ is ultimately the best choice for our core products.
      - adamnemecek 14y ago
        When I said 'stuck', I actually meant 'had no other choice anyway' not, 'there were superior technologies but because Qt was in C++ they had to pick C++'. It's true that it's mostly systems programmers who are against C++ but at the same time I feel like it rubs off on the whole FOSS community.
- wfunction 14y ago
  What about Clang/LLVM?
  - ciupicri 14y ago
    It's not as popular as GCC for the moment. A lot of software is still compiled with GCC.
    - wfunction 14y ago
      I wasn't referring to the popularity, I was referring to the "coolness" of C++ in FOSS. But LLVM and Clang are becoming more and more popular as time goes on.
      - ciupicri 14y ago
        Indeed. For example FreeBSD (the kernel and the ports) can now be built with Clang: An unmodified FreeBSD head and stable/9 can completely be built by clang! (Note that you still need to setup /etc/make.conf or /etc/src.conf properly, see below for the details.) [1] For 10-CURRENT after OSVERSION 1000024 (svnref 242624) Clang is the default compiler on i386 and amd64. And is installed as cc, c++ and cpp. [2] [1] https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang [2] https://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang https://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang
  - adamnemecek 14y ago
    Idk why they picked C++. Probably because it makes more sense for large projects. I was not arguing that there were no C++ FOSS projects, I was merely stating that overall, in the FOSS community, the vast majority of developers dislike C++. I am surprised that people seem to disagree with that.
    - sho_hn 14y ago
      I'll grant that it might be related to the company I tend to keep, as established above, but I've seriously never had the impression that there is anywhere near a majority of FOSS developers that actively dislike C++, especially seen vs. C. I'd say the majority of FOSS developers most likely don't care, because they use higher-level languages doing web-related work for which either language isn't well-suited due to the tooling and deployment realities. So I guess it depends on whether you equate disinterest with dislike and you might be right. But among the developers that reasonably could use C++ I don't think there's a majority explicitly avoiding its use.

> It looks like C++ is getting some traction That's some LOL-worthy understatement right there.

adamnemecek 14y ago

He's probably talking about FOSS projects where C++ is still very uncool.

sho_hn 14y ago
The most productive FOSS communities in terms of loc and number-of-projects (KDE and Mozilla) produce primarily C++ code.
- adamnemecek 14y ago
  Those are also exceptions. For KDE, it was probably because they were stuck with whatever Qt was written in. For Mozilla, I'm not sure. Possibly because C++ has had better support on Windows? You don't agree that there is a strong sense of anti-C++ sentiments in the FOSS community? ASAIK both Linus and Stallman hate C++ with passion.
  - FooBarWidget 14y ago
    KDE didn't use C++ because they were "stuck" with it. Talk to any KDE developer and they will tell you all about KDE's "superior C++ based technology" and how it's better than gtk/gobject. They do have a lot of nice stuff; with GObject there's just so much boilerplate.
    - adamnemecek 14y ago
      I meant that they were stuck with it in the sense that any other choice would be insane. Not stuck with it in the sense that they would want to switch to something else but they won't because of Qt. There are no other choices. Also, at no point did I make a comparison between GTK and KDE.
    - omaranto 14y ago
      You mean with GObject there's a lot of boilerplate if you use it from C, but it's supposed to be pretty nice from Vala.
  - sho_hn 14y ago
    No, I never got that feeling. I think there's a sub-culture of systems-level programmers that are skeptical of C++ (sometimes for reasons I can respect as pragmatic and reasonable, cf. Linus), but the FOSS community is a lot larger than systems-level programming. In the areas I've dabbled in - primarily the desktop - C++ is generally seen as a viable choice outside the G* isle, and even there you can find some significant exceptions (the de-facto FOSS vector graphics app, Inkscape, uses GTK+ and is written in C++). And speaking as a KDE developer, I don't think I've ever met one of us who feels we're "stuck with C++". We're certainly critical of some of the warts of the language, and the community certainly includes folks who prefer and care strongly about some of the other languages we produce or have bindings for, and we're doing a lot of JavaScript on top of C++ foundations lately, but the overall sentiment is that in the grand scheme of things, C++ is ultimately the best choice for our core products.
    - adamnemecek 14y ago
      When I said 'stuck', I actually meant 'had no other choice anyway' not, 'there were superior technologies but because Qt was in C++ they had to pick C++'. It's true that it's mostly systems programmers who are against C++ but at the same time I feel like it rubs off on the whole FOSS community.
wfunction 14y ago
What about Clang/LLVM?
- ciupicri 14y ago
  It's not as popular as GCC for the moment. A lot of software is still compiled with GCC.
  - wfunction 14y ago
    I wasn't referring to the popularity, I was referring to the "coolness" of C++ in FOSS. But LLVM and Clang are becoming more and more popular as time goes on.
    - ciupicri 14y ago
      Indeed. For example FreeBSD (the kernel and the ports) can now be built with Clang: An unmodified FreeBSD head and stable/9 can completely be built by clang! (Note that you still need to setup /etc/make.conf or /etc/src.conf properly, see below for the details.) [1] For 10-CURRENT after OSVERSION 1000024 (svnref 242624) Clang is the default compiler on i386 and amd64. And is installed as cc, c++ and cpp. [2] [1] https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang https://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang [2] https://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang https://wiki.freebsd.org/PortsAndClang
- adamnemecek 14y ago
  Idk why they picked C++. Probably because it makes more sense for large projects. I was not arguing that there were no C++ FOSS projects, I was merely stating that overall, in the FOSS community, the vast majority of developers dislike C++. I am surprised that people seem to disagree with that.
  - sho_hn 14y ago
    I'll grant that it might be related to the company I tend to keep, as established above, but I've seriously never had the impression that there is anywhere near a majority of FOSS developers that actively dislike C++, especially seen vs. C. I'd say the majority of FOSS developers most likely don't care, because they use higher-level languages doing web-related work for which either language isn't well-suited due to the tooling and deployment realities. So I guess it depends on whether you equate disinterest with dislike and you might be right. But among the developers that reasonably could use C++ I don't think there's a majority explicitly avoiding its use.