5 ms·

"Invisible Electrostatic Wall" at 3M adhesive tape plant (1996)

96 points by slyall 14y ago

Titanous 14y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3274335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3274335
smoyer 14y ago
"... fix it or sell tickets." - I'd pay a little something to play with an obviously real, but undefined effect like that.
X4 14y ago
I've read this already 2 years ago and discussed it with our Physics prof. It's definitely wrong. Otherwise I'd like to see a proof.
- retrogradeorbit 14y ago
  Of course your physics professor (and their books) definitely knows everything in the world without needing to venture outside or do any real world experiments. And they certainly couldn't be a fragilista[1] nor could they possibly have God Complex[2]. Seeing as your professor is all knowing, maybe they could finally tell us all how lithium polymer batteries work [3]? 1: http://www.amazon.com/Antifragile-Things-That-Gain-Disorder/dp/1400067820 http://www.amazon.com/Antifragile-Things-That-Gain-Disorder/... 2: http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html 3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5124170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5124170
  - X4 14y ago
    Thanks for the links. We have some Profs who have a God Complex, but he's just the typical nice Physics Nerd. He didn't proof that it doesn't work and urged interest in it, if somebody finds out more. But he couldn't find out a way that this phenomenon was real. That doesn't mean that phenomenons like the on in the article are impossible, but that the setup to create such phenomenon is probably wrong or not documented well enough to come to a better conclusion than - "it's definitely wrong".
    - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
      Right. Just be careful of that word 'definitely'. Maybe it's more 'most likely'.
  - Snoptic 14y ago
    I have a cold fusion reactor in my basement. It extracts free energy from the vacuum and it powers my car instead of gasoline. Since you are antifragilist and don't have a God Complex, you are well suited to invest in my project to commercialize this technology!
    - marvin 14y ago
      There is a huge difference between believing that energy conservation is wrong and believing that there could be unexplored avenues in the technological application of electrostatic forces.
      - DennisP 14y ago
        I'm not a cold fusion zealot but I don't think it's correct to say that it would violate energy conservation, since they are talking about nuclear reactions converting mass to energy, just like fission and fusion. It's just that they're talking about unusual reactions that most scientists think are implausible.
    - darkarmani 14y ago
      I'm pretty sure that is tax evasion. Just like you aren't allowed to use heating oil or kerosene for driving on public roads.
dm2 14y ago
Here is a more detailed article and a nice drawing to help you imagine how the rollers were arranged. http://aha.miraclegreat.com/2/post/2012/05/invisible-electrostatic-wall-at-3m-adhesive-tape-plant.html http://aha.miraclegreat.com/2/post/2012/05/invisible-electro... Can someone post this in the Mythbusters forums and try to get them to attempt to replicate this?
- te 14y ago
  +1 for MythBusters. This would be fantastic for them.
- sodiumphosphate 14y ago
  Oh yes, please. edit: I submitted the request at http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/show-talk/eject-your-reality.htm http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/show-talk/ejec....
josephpmay 14y ago
Could this possibly be the person referenced in the story?[http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-swenson/18/589/b52 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-swenson/18/589/b52] Has anyone tried contacting him to see if the story is real (and if so, if they ever figured out what caused it?)
- JavaJabba 14y ago
  A co-worker who had worked at the 3M plant at the time told me this story in 2010. I emailed him, he knows David Swenson so maybe I can get David's opinion on the article.
  - wbeaty 14y ago
    Note that the amasci.com article is about David Swenson's conference talk about the phenomenon, here's the copypaste: http://web.archive.org/web/19961226041803/http://www.att.com/conferences/eosesd/s7.htm http://web.archive.org/web/19961226041803/http://www.att.com... SESSION 7: SPECIAL SESSION, 17th Annual EOS/ESD Symposium THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 1995, 8:00 am SESSION 7: SPECIAL SESSION: ELECTROSTATIC CONSIDERATIONS IN INDUSTRY MODERATOR: D. Swenson, 3M 7.7 CASE STUDY - LARGE PLASTIC WEB ELECTROSTATIC PROBLEMS, RESULTS AND CURE, D. Swenson, 3M Company Tremendous static charge generation on a plastic web causes unique physical phenomena and special problems. Solution was simple and cost effective. The real question ...was this "star trek physics," or really just a human-nerve TENS effect; temporary muscle paralysis caused by static discharges all over the victim's skin? They never threw a baseball down the tunnel to see if it halted.
sodiumphosphate 14y ago
Doesn't it seem more plausible that someone just executed a prank with a sheet of plastic, and a myth grew up around it?
- b6 14y ago
  I appreciate skepticism, but come on. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference?
  - wbeaty 14y ago
    The original report was a presentation at an ESD conference, not a rumor or FOAF. I heard about it from a tech at an EMI testing lab in 1996, tracked down Dave Swenson's email at 3M, and posted the article on amasci.com. Some extra info: Dave S. mentioned that the experience was a bit painful, since corona discharges were leaping from his whole body at the time. He said he was unable to turn around while near the "invisible wall," and had to walk backwards to get away from it. Also, he described the whole plant having serious ESD hazards: tape on floor to mark pathways, and if you left the path, you might get zapped by a mini-lightning from some ungrounded machine.
ck2 14y ago
Probably also generating a massive dose of x-rays. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/science/28xray.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/science/28xray.html?_r=0 I wonder if there has ever been a cancer cluster found at such plants?
- asdfs 14y ago
  X-rays are only produced by the unrolling of tape in a vacuum. So presumably no risk here.
killermonkeys 14y ago
Rather than try to replicate a really complicated set of conditions, why not see if ionized air blown at an object in a wind tunnel causes more pressure than non-ionized air? The crux of the theory appears to be that a cyclon of ionized air was set up that was unable to attach to the sheet. Generating a vortex of air is pretty common, a lot of industrial mixers and sifters do this. It's what inspired Dyson to make his vacuum.
ColinWright 14y ago
http://xkcd.com/242/ http://xkcd.com/242/

96 points by slyall 14y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3274335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3274335

"... fix it or sell tickets." - I'd pay a little something to play with an obviously real, but undefined effect like that.

X4 14y ago

I've read this already 2 years ago and discussed it with our Physics prof. It's definitely wrong. Otherwise I'd like to see a proof.

retrogradeorbit 14y ago
Of course your physics professor (and their books) definitely knows everything in the world without needing to venture outside or do any real world experiments. And they certainly couldn't be a fragilista[1] nor could they possibly have God Complex[2]. Seeing as your professor is all knowing, maybe they could finally tell us all how lithium polymer batteries work [3]? 1: http://www.amazon.com/Antifragile-Things-That-Gain-Disorder/dp/1400067820 http://www.amazon.com/Antifragile-Things-That-Gain-Disorder/... 2: http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_harford.html 3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5124170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5124170
- X4 14y ago
  Thanks for the links. We have some Profs who have a God Complex, but he's just the typical nice Physics Nerd. He didn't proof that it doesn't work and urged interest in it, if somebody finds out more. But he couldn't find out a way that this phenomenon was real. That doesn't mean that phenomenons like the on in the article are impossible, but that the setup to create such phenomenon is probably wrong or not documented well enough to come to a better conclusion than - "it's definitely wrong".
  - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
    Right. Just be careful of that word 'definitely'. Maybe it's more 'most likely'.
- Snoptic 14y ago
  I have a cold fusion reactor in my basement. It extracts free energy from the vacuum and it powers my car instead of gasoline. Since you are antifragilist and don't have a God Complex, you are well suited to invest in my project to commercialize this technology!
  - marvin 14y ago
    There is a huge difference between believing that energy conservation is wrong and believing that there could be unexplored avenues in the technological application of electrostatic forces.
    - DennisP 14y ago
      I'm not a cold fusion zealot but I don't think it's correct to say that it would violate energy conservation, since they are talking about nuclear reactions converting mass to energy, just like fission and fusion. It's just that they're talking about unusual reactions that most scientists think are implausible.
  - darkarmani 14y ago
    I'm pretty sure that is tax evasion. Just like you aren't allowed to use heating oil or kerosene for driving on public roads.

dm2 14y ago

Here is a more detailed article and a nice drawing to help you imagine how the rollers were arranged. http://aha.miraclegreat.com/2/post/2012/05/invisible-electrostatic-wall-at-3m-adhesive-tape-plant.html http://aha.miraclegreat.com/2/post/2012/05/invisible-electro... Can someone post this in the Mythbusters forums and try to get them to attempt to replicate this?

te 14y ago
+1 for MythBusters. This would be fantastic for them.
sodiumphosphate 14y ago
Oh yes, please. edit: I submitted the request at http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/show-talk/eject-your-reality.htm http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/show-talk/ejec....

josephpmay 14y ago

Could this possibly be the person referenced in the story?[http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-swenson/18/589/b52 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-swenson/18/589/b52] Has anyone tried contacting him to see if the story is real (and if so, if they ever figured out what caused it?)

JavaJabba 14y ago
A co-worker who had worked at the 3M plant at the time told me this story in 2010. I emailed him, he knows David Swenson so maybe I can get David's opinion on the article.
- wbeaty 14y ago
  Note that the amasci.com article is about David Swenson's conference talk about the phenomenon, here's the copypaste: http://web.archive.org/web/19961226041803/http://www.att.com/conferences/eosesd/s7.htm http://web.archive.org/web/19961226041803/http://www.att.com... SESSION 7: SPECIAL SESSION, 17th Annual EOS/ESD Symposium THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 1995, 8:00 am SESSION 7: SPECIAL SESSION: ELECTROSTATIC CONSIDERATIONS IN INDUSTRY MODERATOR: D. Swenson, 3M 7.7 CASE STUDY - LARGE PLASTIC WEB ELECTROSTATIC PROBLEMS, RESULTS AND CURE, D. Swenson, 3M Company Tremendous static charge generation on a plastic web causes unique physical phenomena and special problems. Solution was simple and cost effective. The real question ...was this "star trek physics," or really just a human-nerve TENS effect; temporary muscle paralysis caused by static discharges all over the victim's skin? They never threw a baseball down the tunnel to see if it halted.

sodiumphosphate 14y ago

Doesn't it seem more plausible that someone just executed a prank with a sheet of plastic, and a myth grew up around it?

b6 14y ago
I appreciate skepticism, but come on. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference?
- wbeaty 14y ago
  The original report was a presentation at an ESD conference, not a rumor or FOAF. I heard about it from a tech at an EMI testing lab in 1996, tracked down Dave Swenson's email at 3M, and posted the article on amasci.com. Some extra info: Dave S. mentioned that the experience was a bit painful, since corona discharges were leaping from his whole body at the time. He said he was unable to turn around while near the "invisible wall," and had to walk backwards to get away from it. Also, he described the whole plant having serious ESD hazards: tape on floor to mark pathways, and if you left the path, you might get zapped by a mini-lightning from some ungrounded machine.

ck2 14y ago

Probably also generating a massive dose of x-rays. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/science/28xray.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/science/28xray.html?_r=0 I wonder if there has ever been a cancer cluster found at such plants?

asdfs 14y ago
X-rays are only produced by the unrolling of tape in a vacuum. So presumably no risk here.

killermonkeys 14y ago

Rather than try to replicate a really complicated set of conditions, why not see if ionized air blown at an object in a wind tunnel causes more pressure than non-ionized air? The crux of the theory appears to be that a cyclon of ionized air was set up that was unable to attach to the sheet. Generating a vortex of air is pretty common, a lot of industrial mixers and sifters do this. It's what inspired Dyson to make his vacuum.

ColinWright 14y ago

http://xkcd.com/242/ http://xkcd.com/242/