6 ms·

The Word "Hacker" (2004)

28 points by messel 18y ago

systemtrigger 18y ago
Last night on 60 Minutes, Leslie Stahl interviewed Vint Cerf and some security experts for a story on identity theft and malware. Cerf was on for maybe 20 seconds and the rest of the segment was your typical the-sky-is-falling doomsday report. What bugged me about Stahl's piece was how rotten she presumed hackers writ large to be. She said the word at least 20 times with no consideration given for honest hackers. I once used the h-word in a corporate setting in front of my boss. The benign context left no doubt as to my meaning but old pointy hair later assured me I had crossed a line. Memo: the safewords are "code" and "program." Good to be working on a startup today. Essays like this continue to remind me why I left the establishment.
jgrahamc 18y ago
Do we really need to go over this again? It's pretty simple: within the computer community 'hacker' has a positive context. For everyone else it's negative. It's like 'fag'. Say that in the UK and you are talking about cigarettes. Say it in the US and it's offensive.
- bisceglie 18y ago
  not to cut teeth here, but the 'fag' analogy doesn't really hold up. no matter how you swing it, the term 'hacker' relates to technology (hardware, software, wetware, whatever). in this case, 'fag' has two very different meanings. i'm reminded of the story posted a month (or so) ago on the linux hacker dad whose son received some flack from an ignorant teacher (anyone have a link?).
  - jgrahamc 18y ago
    I disagree. It's all about context. Don't describe yourself as a hacker unless you are around fellow hackers (in the sense used on this site). Otherwise you risk being misinterpreted.
    - bisceglie 18y ago
      i'd rather educate than be misinterpreted. the term 'hacker' best describes me and what i do. i'm not [just] an engineer. i'm not [just] a designer. i'm a hacker. hacker has a real, defined meaning. the media and popular interpretation be damned.
  - unalone 18y ago
    Perhaps not "hacker", but call something a "hack" and programmers will get a positive connotation, other people will see a negative one.
    - dhimes 18y ago
      Splitting these connotations is a tough battle. The "skeptics" movement faced the same issue 30 or so years ago. "Skeptic" was seen as equivalent to "cynic," and to outsiders can still share some of the same emotional attachments. People thinking about doing this with their startup should bear this in mind.
    - Xichekolas 18y ago
      Well as a programmer, I'd say "a hack" has a mild negative connotation (something hastily thrown together and brittle). But the terms "to hack" and "hacking" are both positive (to get stuff done). I have no problem with the term 'hacker', but I don't call myself one. To me it feels the same as calling myself a 'player' or something... like I'm a poseur.
windsurfer 18y ago
Maybe we need a story called "The Word 'News'"
- unalone 18y ago
  That might make for an interesting story! There're arguments about the origin: there's the mindset that says it's slang for "the new things", using "news" as a plural for new. Then there's the one that says "NEWS" is an anagram of "North East West South." It leads to some interesting arguments in media class, when it comes to defining "What is News?" (That's an argument that Hacker News seems to have as well, so it's far from dead.)
  - baha_man 18y ago
    http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwordorigins/news?view=uk http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwordorigins/... "The original sense of news was 'new things'; this is long obsolete. Since the 15th century it has been used to mean 'tidings, the report of recent events, new occurrences as a subject or report or talk.'"
matthias 18y ago
"Hacker" may very well be (helpfully) keeping the size of HN down. The last time I sent someone a link to an HN discussion they took one look at the url and phoned to tell me that my email had a virus.
- sounddust 18y ago
  Well, the English language is defined by its usage, and if 99% of English speakers think that a hacker is someone who illegally tampers with computer systems, then that's what it means. I don't know why hackers are always fighting an impossible uphill battle to change public perception of the word rather than just coming up with a new word or phrase that defines the positive aspects of being a hacker. In fact, if done properly, the new phrase could even contain the word "hacker".
  - Xichekolas 18y ago
    > I don't know why hackers are always fighting an impossible uphill battle to change public perception of the word Probably because it allows easy group identification. Those that use the positive meaning are in the group and those that use the negative meaning are outsiders. We use many words this way. At the risk of sounding very suburban, witness the difference between Gangsta/Gangster when used by people inside/outside hip-hop culture.
    - sounddust 18y ago
      True, but we don't constantly hear "gangstas" complaining about how everyone misuses their group identifier.
      - Radix 18y ago
        Wouldn't their identifier become less valuable to them if it was used positively everywhere? Changing it wouldn't do them any good.
  - access_denied 18y ago
    Alternative version for your last sentence: "In fact, if done properly, the new phrase could even" be a hack in itself.
callmeed 18y ago
I don't agree that everyone in the tech world agrees on the term. When I was in school (late 90s/2000), one of our professors made a clear distinction between "hacker mentality" and "software engineer mentality"–emphasizing that the latter was professional/preferred and the former was undesirable/rogue. To him, a "hacker" didn't plan, didn't show an engineering thought-process, didn't think long-term, and wasn't a team player. So, at least in academia, not everyone thinks "hackers" are good.
- dhimes 18y ago
  Even some of the people we would call "hackers" consider a "hack" to be a temporary fix they put in that's meant to work until they have the opportunity to do it right.
cadalac 18y ago
Nuts. I thought it was a new one.
Raphael_Amiard 18y ago
There is some interresting things for a non american guy in this article, although i think the way he bounds the fact of being a hacker, and the fact of being american is truely stereotypical, and a little bit sad also seen from outside. I'd have prefered if he dug the intellectual property thing a bit more.
messel 18y ago
There's a lot more to this post than semantic arguments. Get past the first three paragraphs and read about the profound connection between hacking and liberty. It's tied to our past, our present and our future innovations.

28 points by messel 18y ago

Last night on 60 Minutes, Leslie Stahl interviewed Vint Cerf and some security experts for a story on identity theft and malware. Cerf was on for maybe 20 seconds and the rest of the segment was your typical the-sky-is-falling doomsday report. What bugged me about Stahl's piece was how rotten she presumed hackers writ large to be. She said the word at least 20 times with no consideration given for honest hackers. I once used the h-word in a corporate setting in front of my boss. The benign context left no doubt as to my meaning but old pointy hair later assured me I had crossed a line. Memo: the safewords are "code" and "program." Good to be working on a startup today. Essays like this continue to remind me why I left the establishment.

jgrahamc 18y ago

Do we really need to go over this again? It's pretty simple: within the computer community 'hacker' has a positive context. For everyone else it's negative. It's like 'fag'. Say that in the UK and you are talking about cigarettes. Say it in the US and it's offensive.

bisceglie 18y ago
not to cut teeth here, but the 'fag' analogy doesn't really hold up. no matter how you swing it, the term 'hacker' relates to technology (hardware, software, wetware, whatever). in this case, 'fag' has two very different meanings. i'm reminded of the story posted a month (or so) ago on the linux hacker dad whose son received some flack from an ignorant teacher (anyone have a link?).
- jgrahamc 18y ago
  I disagree. It's all about context. Don't describe yourself as a hacker unless you are around fellow hackers (in the sense used on this site). Otherwise you risk being misinterpreted.
  - bisceglie 18y ago
    i'd rather educate than be misinterpreted. the term 'hacker' best describes me and what i do. i'm not [just] an engineer. i'm not [just] a designer. i'm a hacker. hacker has a real, defined meaning. the media and popular interpretation be damned.
- unalone 18y ago
  Perhaps not "hacker", but call something a "hack" and programmers will get a positive connotation, other people will see a negative one.
  - dhimes 18y ago
    Splitting these connotations is a tough battle. The "skeptics" movement faced the same issue 30 or so years ago. "Skeptic" was seen as equivalent to "cynic," and to outsiders can still share some of the same emotional attachments. People thinking about doing this with their startup should bear this in mind.
  - Xichekolas 18y ago
    Well as a programmer, I'd say "a hack" has a mild negative connotation (something hastily thrown together and brittle). But the terms "to hack" and "hacking" are both positive (to get stuff done). I have no problem with the term 'hacker', but I don't call myself one. To me it feels the same as calling myself a 'player' or something... like I'm a poseur.

windsurfer 18y ago

Maybe we need a story called "The Word 'News'"

unalone 18y ago
That might make for an interesting story! There're arguments about the origin: there's the mindset that says it's slang for "the new things", using "news" as a plural for new. Then there's the one that says "NEWS" is an anagram of "North East West South." It leads to some interesting arguments in media class, when it comes to defining "What is News?" (That's an argument that Hacker News seems to have as well, so it's far from dead.)
- baha_man 18y ago
  http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwordorigins/news?view=uk http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwordorigins/... "The original sense of news was 'new things'; this is long obsolete. Since the 15th century it has been used to mean 'tidings, the report of recent events, new occurrences as a subject or report or talk.'"

matthias 18y ago

"Hacker" may very well be (helpfully) keeping the size of HN down. The last time I sent someone a link to an HN discussion they took one look at the url and phoned to tell me that my email had a virus.

sounddust 18y ago
Well, the English language is defined by its usage, and if 99% of English speakers think that a hacker is someone who illegally tampers with computer systems, then that's what it means. I don't know why hackers are always fighting an impossible uphill battle to change public perception of the word rather than just coming up with a new word or phrase that defines the positive aspects of being a hacker. In fact, if done properly, the new phrase could even contain the word "hacker".
- Xichekolas 18y ago
  > I don't know why hackers are always fighting an impossible uphill battle to change public perception of the word Probably because it allows easy group identification. Those that use the positive meaning are in the group and those that use the negative meaning are outsiders. We use many words this way. At the risk of sounding very suburban, witness the difference between Gangsta/Gangster when used by people inside/outside hip-hop culture.
  - sounddust 18y ago
    True, but we don't constantly hear "gangstas" complaining about how everyone misuses their group identifier.
    - Radix 18y ago
      Wouldn't their identifier become less valuable to them if it was used positively everywhere? Changing it wouldn't do them any good.
- access_denied 18y ago
  Alternative version for your last sentence: "In fact, if done properly, the new phrase could even" be a hack in itself.

callmeed 18y ago

I don't agree that everyone in the tech world agrees on the term. When I was in school (late 90s/2000), one of our professors made a clear distinction between "hacker mentality" and "software engineer mentality"–emphasizing that the latter was professional/preferred and the former was undesirable/rogue. To him, a "hacker" didn't plan, didn't show an engineering thought-process, didn't think long-term, and wasn't a team player. So, at least in academia, not everyone thinks "hackers" are good.

dhimes 18y ago
Even some of the people we would call "hackers" consider a "hack" to be a temporary fix they put in that's meant to work until they have the opportunity to do it right.

cadalac 18y ago

Nuts. I thought it was a new one.

Raphael_Amiard 18y ago

There is some interresting things for a non american guy in this article, although i think the way he bounds the fact of being a hacker, and the fact of being american is truely stereotypical, and a little bit sad also seen from outside. I'd have prefered if he dug the intellectual property thing a bit more.

messel 18y ago

There's a lot more to this post than semantic arguments. Get past the first three paragraphs and read about the profound connection between hacking and liberty. It's tied to our past, our present and our future innovations.