6 ms·

DHH: Doing a Start Up in the Real World [video]

47 points by sant0sk1 18y ago

jgrahamc 18y ago
Starts with poor audio and then improves a lot.
mattjung 18y ago
My Conclusion: do it your own way (which is not necessarily: do it the 37signals way).
gstar 18y ago
I'm so mentally attracted to the concept of not formulating a business plan other than "make something people want, and then put it up for sale" - but in my business it hasn't been viable. To get the loan that we've taken out, and to get meetings with useful people, we've had to have a traditional business plan and cashflow forecast. Here's the good news though: it only took me one evening to write and another to edit, and it doesn't matter if we don't stick to it. I wonder if Jason Fried had to man up and write one when he founded his consulting firm?
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  Writing a business plan to show a bank and "writing a business plan" are two different things, really. Looking at 37S, my guess is that they're mostly self funded, so I don't think they ever went looking for loans. I would say this is the "ideal path", even if it isn't practical. If you do need start up capital, then of course you're going to have to show the bank that you're good for it. You should still cling to the idea however that your ultimate business is about making "something" and not sticking to what you thought you would be making before you started.
swombat 18y ago
37S keep on insisting on the whole "don't write a business plan" thing. In this talk, DHH puts up a strawman.. "Build something good enough that people want to pay us money for, and charge them monthly.. that's my business plan." That's not a business plan, that's a business model. A business plan is simply the result of doing basic research like: * estimating the size of the market * checking out the competition * estimating your costs * figuring out what drives your costs * figuring out just how much you need to sell, and at what price, to cover your costs * agreeing who's gonna do what when, roughly and a number of other things.. A "business plan" is just a piece of paper. Business planning, on the other hand, is essential - unless you like to fly with your eyes closed.
- dhh 18y ago
  According to that definition, we enjoy flying blind, then. We never did any substantial research in any of the areas that you suggest and we managed to do just fine. Doesn't mean that you should never do those things, just that I generally find them overrated as your ability to gauge market sizes for non-consumption products is very limited (which is what we try to do almost exclusively, attract people who haven't used a product in the category before).
  - billroberts 18y ago
    Yep I think that's the key problem with business plans: estimating sales. You can make a reasonable prediction of costs, but most revenue forecasts are a mix of wishful thinking and random number generation.
  - mauricio 18y ago
    The "we did it and we do just fine" argument to me is really what's overrated here. How do you know you are doing just fine? How much of the market have you captured? How big is that market? What if you had created your business plan 5 years ago and today you did triple your sales? Would that extra 2-3 weeks of work be worth it?
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      How do you know you are doing just fine? I'm pretty sure they just look at their bank accounts. In all seriousness, there's doing fine and being greedy. There will always be a step to climb, a market to reach or revenue to grow. The goal is to do enough to enjoy life and be comfortable, not to be the richest man in the world. At some point, you can do "well enough" and not worry about what "could have been".
      - mauricio 18y ago
        I'm sure their investors would disagree.
mauricio 18y ago
Not creating a business plan and making up prices out of thin air is definitely the most fun and least time consuming. I think DHH nails that aspect of it. But, how feasible is it to start companies this way? Sure it may have worked well for them and it may even work incredibly well for your business. As hackers though, we know that just because something worked once, twice or 500 times doesn't mean it's the truth or will always work. It's best to be prudent wherever possible and do some research into your market and pricing strategies. I'm not saying go off and create 5 year business plans, I'm just saying it definitely deserves some of your time cycles.
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  Why? Is there an identifiable increase to your chance of success if you have a business plan over not having one? In the traditional business, I suppose the answer would probably be yes (although I haven't really seen anything that supports this). Working in tech however, is much more of a crapshoot. Most of the time, you can't really research a market you're creating. This alone makes the whole process a giant guessing game. If forming a business plan is just a series of guesses, you'd be better off moving straight into the part where you're actively testing those guesses with a workable product.
  - mauricio 18y ago
    I think you make the assumption that the tech you are creating here is inexpensive. If you can make your idea with $5k and a few months time, go for it. Make up prices and make up numbers. What if your new product, that has never been done before, will costs tens of millions? Surely those products have existed, and yet are still somehow able to do the prudent 'guesswork' to convince venture capitalists.
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      What if your new product, that has never been done before, will costs tens of millions? Bluntly, my opinion here would be that this isn't a viable option for a startup, unless they have access to easy angel capital or can self fund to that amount. Developing an idea with that price tag is an is a risk orders of magnitudes higher than a low cost startup. Having a hit is hard enough, but you'd need a run-away smashing super hit to even break even. Even if you choose that path, there are still aspects of the idea that can be harnessed and build at much lower costs to begin income generation to help fund the remainder of the idea. Investing money of that amount into an idea that has yet to prove itself is not my idea of a good move, really. EDIT - Curious, what problem space are you thinking about/working in that requires that level of funding?
wensing 18y ago
Don't get so hung up on his point about whether or not you should write a business plan that you miss the rest of his points, which are great. Among other things, that it's about execution and staying power, not the idea.
dpnewman 18y ago
I always find DNN compelling. And appreciate the fact that he spends a lot of time trying to get others to go out and realize their visions, while providing some key guidance. I agree with most every angle, except I do think he over-simplifies, a little, the idea that all viable businesses must start with a product that people pay for. While it's a hard road, and a great challenge, web apps that begin life as free play a very important part in the whole web ethos, and some become very valuable through a variety of valid business models that can be tacked on later depending on what/how things evolve. So to dismiss "startups" that shoot for this particular "success" wholesale, I would say is it's own sort of nay-saying. But again, as a whole...loved the pres.

47 points by sant0sk1 18y ago

jgrahamc 18y ago

Starts with poor audio and then improves a lot.

mattjung 18y ago

My Conclusion: do it your own way (which is not necessarily: do it the 37signals way).

gstar 18y ago

I'm so mentally attracted to the concept of not formulating a business plan other than "make something people want, and then put it up for sale" - but in my business it hasn't been viable. To get the loan that we've taken out, and to get meetings with useful people, we've had to have a traditional business plan and cashflow forecast. Here's the good news though: it only took me one evening to write and another to edit, and it doesn't matter if we don't stick to it. I wonder if Jason Fried had to man up and write one when he founded his consulting firm?

run4yourlives 18y ago
Writing a business plan to show a bank and "writing a business plan" are two different things, really. Looking at 37S, my guess is that they're mostly self funded, so I don't think they ever went looking for loans. I would say this is the "ideal path", even if it isn't practical. If you do need start up capital, then of course you're going to have to show the bank that you're good for it. You should still cling to the idea however that your ultimate business is about making "something" and not sticking to what you thought you would be making before you started.

swombat 18y ago

37S keep on insisting on the whole "don't write a business plan" thing. In this talk, DHH puts up a strawman.. "Build something good enough that people want to pay us money for, and charge them monthly.. that's my business plan." That's not a business plan, that's a business model. A business plan is simply the result of doing basic research like: * estimating the size of the market * checking out the competition * estimating your costs * figuring out what drives your costs * figuring out just how much you need to sell, and at what price, to cover your costs * agreeing who's gonna do what when, roughly and a number of other things.. A "business plan" is just a piece of paper. Business planning, on the other hand, is essential - unless you like to fly with your eyes closed.

dhh 18y ago
According to that definition, we enjoy flying blind, then. We never did any substantial research in any of the areas that you suggest and we managed to do just fine. Doesn't mean that you should never do those things, just that I generally find them overrated as your ability to gauge market sizes for non-consumption products is very limited (which is what we try to do almost exclusively, attract people who haven't used a product in the category before).
- billroberts 18y ago
  Yep I think that's the key problem with business plans: estimating sales. You can make a reasonable prediction of costs, but most revenue forecasts are a mix of wishful thinking and random number generation.
- mauricio 18y ago
  The "we did it and we do just fine" argument to me is really what's overrated here. How do you know you are doing just fine? How much of the market have you captured? How big is that market? What if you had created your business plan 5 years ago and today you did triple your sales? Would that extra 2-3 weeks of work be worth it?
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    How do you know you are doing just fine? I'm pretty sure they just look at their bank accounts. In all seriousness, there's doing fine and being greedy. There will always be a step to climb, a market to reach or revenue to grow. The goal is to do enough to enjoy life and be comfortable, not to be the richest man in the world. At some point, you can do "well enough" and not worry about what "could have been".
    - mauricio 18y ago
      I'm sure their investors would disagree.

mauricio 18y ago

Not creating a business plan and making up prices out of thin air is definitely the most fun and least time consuming. I think DHH nails that aspect of it. But, how feasible is it to start companies this way? Sure it may have worked well for them and it may even work incredibly well for your business. As hackers though, we know that just because something worked once, twice or 500 times doesn't mean it's the truth or will always work. It's best to be prudent wherever possible and do some research into your market and pricing strategies. I'm not saying go off and create 5 year business plans, I'm just saying it definitely deserves some of your time cycles.

run4yourlives 18y ago
Why? Is there an identifiable increase to your chance of success if you have a business plan over not having one? In the traditional business, I suppose the answer would probably be yes (although I haven't really seen anything that supports this). Working in tech however, is much more of a crapshoot. Most of the time, you can't really research a market you're creating. This alone makes the whole process a giant guessing game. If forming a business plan is just a series of guesses, you'd be better off moving straight into the part where you're actively testing those guesses with a workable product.
- mauricio 18y ago
  I think you make the assumption that the tech you are creating here is inexpensive. If you can make your idea with $5k and a few months time, go for it. Make up prices and make up numbers. What if your new product, that has never been done before, will costs tens of millions? Surely those products have existed, and yet are still somehow able to do the prudent 'guesswork' to convince venture capitalists.
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    What if your new product, that has never been done before, will costs tens of millions? Bluntly, my opinion here would be that this isn't a viable option for a startup, unless they have access to easy angel capital or can self fund to that amount. Developing an idea with that price tag is an is a risk orders of magnitudes higher than a low cost startup. Having a hit is hard enough, but you'd need a run-away smashing super hit to even break even. Even if you choose that path, there are still aspects of the idea that can be harnessed and build at much lower costs to begin income generation to help fund the remainder of the idea. Investing money of that amount into an idea that has yet to prove itself is not my idea of a good move, really. EDIT - Curious, what problem space are you thinking about/working in that requires that level of funding?

wensing 18y ago

Don't get so hung up on his point about whether or not you should write a business plan that you miss the rest of his points, which are great. Among other things, that it's about execution and staying power, not the idea.

dpnewman 18y ago

I always find DNN compelling. And appreciate the fact that he spends a lot of time trying to get others to go out and realize their visions, while providing some key guidance. I agree with most every angle, except I do think he over-simplifies, a little, the idea that all viable businesses must start with a product that people pay for. While it's a hard road, and a great challenge, web apps that begin life as free play a very important part in the whole web ethos, and some become very valuable through a variety of valid business models that can be tacked on later depending on what/how things evolve. So to dismiss "startups" that shoot for this particular "success" wholesale, I would say is it's own sort of nay-saying. But again, as a whole...loved the pres.