45 ms·

New engine prototype could potentially decrease auto emissions up to 90 percent

25 points by thinker 14y ago

jgj 14y ago
This article is from 2011 and mentions a 25-kilowatt version by the end of the year. Anyone know of any updates?
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  I was going to add the same thing. I was following this when the news broke in 2011 (both Popular Mechanics and Science News had mentions) but nothing since. Since it hasn't gone black (aka 'secret') and has fallen off the "projects" page [1] of Mueller's lab, I'm guessing it doesn't actually work. [1] http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/ http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/ EDIT: Found another article [2] that suggested late last year there was supposed to be a 25KW exemplar. Since its now close to the end of the first quarter of 2013 and there isn't a press release, I'm further convinced that their ended up not being anything to talk about. [2] http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2012/08/waiting-on-the-25-kilowatt-wave-disk-engine-2455872.html http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2012/08/wait...
DiabloD3 14y ago
I don't understand the point of this. I can decrease auto emission 100% by buying from Tesla.
- astrodust 14y ago
  You can decrease tailpipe emissions 100%, but you can't decrease net emissions that much. It's impossible.
  - ericb 14y ago
    > you can't decrease net emissions. It's impossible. I call "bullshit" on your fatalism. Solar energy is powerful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrje73EyKag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrje73EyKag http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-p...
    - astrodust 14y ago
      Look, I'm all for renewable energy, but where do the solar panels come from? You need to make them. This takes resources. These resources are difficult to acquire and manufacture into panels. This is not zero cost.
      - ericb 14y ago
        No one said zero cost. Your claim was that "you can't decrease net emissions." If solar is lower net emissions-wise, you have decreased net emissions.
        astrodust 14y ago
        I said you can't decrease net emissions 100%, you just rephrased what I said by omitting that part.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        ericb 14y ago
        No, I quoted the exact phrasing in a child comment as it stood at the time. Your later edit made your intent clearer.
  - andyl 14y ago
    Not true. Even when the source-energy is coal, Tesla reduces net emissions a lot by eliminating the inefficiency of the IC engine. And when the source-energy is solar, net emissions are even better. :-)
    - meepmorp 14y ago
      If you factor in the emissions of extracting and refining raw materials to produce the car, I wonder if the net for a Tesla is markedly better than a standard car. I don't know the answer to that, just wondering.
    - astrodust 14y ago
      I'm just saying you can't reduce emissions to zero unless you have a zero footprint solution to providing energy. There will always be some collateral damage, no matter how minor, until we're able to make solar panels out of entirely recycled materials using entirely renewable energy.
alanctgardner2 14y ago
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like a normal rotary (Wankel) engine you can buy from Mazda right now. They have some benefits, but they're not a magical cure-all - everyone except Mazda dropped development of them. Wikipedia for the lazy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
- duck 14y ago
  Actually, Mazda dropped the rotary a couple years ago due to efficiency issues. I think they may be working on a new model however.
- lhc- 14y ago
  I thought the same thing when I read the first description. But as an owner of an Rx7 (mazda's rotary car), I can assure you they are not very clean. In fact, they tend to do worse on emissions testing than cars from the same era, at least my older one does (an '88). Also, the "shockwave" part suggests this may not have sparkplugs...? If this engine really can combine the exceptional power-weight ratio and small size of the rotary with modern fuel efficiency and emissions control, it could be a legitimate contender. I don't really get why the article claims it is good for hybrids though; is it just the weight factor? You could make a small rotary hybrid right now if you wanted, if weight was the issue.
- drucken 14y ago
  From what little I've read [1], it does not look anything like a Wankel engine. While they both confer similar engineering benefits (though not claimed fuel benefits) compared to a reciprocating engine, the Wave Disk Generator/Engine, 1. uses compression of air/fuel mixture for ignition (like a diesel engine), not a separate ignition system 2. has an exhaust system that is both radial and circumferential using centrifugal/centripetal forces to clear the gases. Essentially exhausting all the time. 3. has an intake central and orthogonal to the plane of the rotor. Essentially continuous intake. 4. has no "hot spot" fixed housing locations for different parts of the thermodynamic cycle like in a Wankel engine, so, there is no need for a separate cooling or heat distribution system. [1] http://sites.psu.edu/mitanshshah/2012/12/03/wave-disk-generator/ http://sites.psu.edu/mitanshshah/2012/12/03/wave-disk-genera...
jerf 14y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2704614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2704614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2425762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2425762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2337237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2337237
- WestCoastJustin 14y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2704614 - 626 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2425762 - 706 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2337237 - 729 days ago One feature I wish HN had was a merge tool. Merge these threads together, and possibly multiple links per story. Then we can just merge these links/comments into the older thread. Useful for emerging stories about the inevitable "Apple i*" that get posted 50x the day of a release. Kind of like techmeme.com "More:" option.
  - jerf 14y ago
    Yes, and...?
    - WestCoastJustin 14y ago
      Just wanted to give added context that this was from 2011. I've also updated my comment with my thoughts.
VeejayRampay 14y ago
It always irks me how those news of ground-breaking improvements in this and that actually never translate into improvements in greenhouse gases emissions or cleaner air (or do 10 years later in another form without my being aware of it maybe). There's already a few companies (one of them is Tesla Motors, an American company) working on cars that actually cut emissions dramatically and do in fact put a dent into the polluting, gas-guzzling model of the "modern" car paradigm.
easymovet 14y ago
It's basically a low RPM centrifugal turbine engine. which is actually perfect for recharging batteries since it's not as dangerous to have in the car a as an axially vented turbine, which runs at much higher RPM and temperature.
amalag 14y ago
Here is one with a company behind it http://www.liquidpiston.com/default.html http://www.liquidpiston.com/default.html But they don't have an animation http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/auto-blog/liquidpistons-hyper-efficient-engine-turning-the-rotary-inside-out-13817971 http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/auto-blog/liquidpi... This is a picture of all the steps: http://www.gizmag.com/liquidpistol-rotary/24623/pictures#7 http://www.gizmag.com/liquidpistol-rotary/24623/pictures#7 But I cannot understand from that.
lutusp 14y ago
> The Wave Disk Generator uses 60 percent of its fuel for propulsion; standard car engines use just 15 percent. As a result, the generator is 3.5 times more fuel efficient than typical combustion engines. " ... oh, did I mention that I flunked math?" 60 / 15 = 4, not 3.5.

25 points by thinker 14y ago

jgj 14y ago

This article is from 2011 and mentions a 25-kilowatt version by the end of the year. Anyone know of any updates?

ChuckMcM 14y ago
I was going to add the same thing. I was following this when the news broke in 2011 (both Popular Mechanics and Science News had mentions) but nothing since. Since it hasn't gone black (aka 'secret') and has fallen off the "projects" page [1] of Mueller's lab, I'm guessing it doesn't actually work. [1] http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/ http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/ EDIT: Found another article [2] that suggested late last year there was supposed to be a 25KW exemplar. Since its now close to the end of the first quarter of 2013 and there isn't a press release, I'm further convinced that their ended up not being anything to talk about. [2] http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2012/08/waiting-on-the-25-kilowatt-wave-disk-engine-2455872.html http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2012/08/wait...

DiabloD3 14y ago

I don't understand the point of this. I can decrease auto emission 100% by buying from Tesla.

astrodust 14y ago
You can decrease tailpipe emissions 100%, but you can't decrease net emissions that much. It's impossible.
- ericb 14y ago
  > you can't decrease net emissions. It's impossible. I call "bullshit" on your fatalism. Solar energy is powerful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrje73EyKag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrje73EyKag http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-p...
  - astrodust 14y ago
    Look, I'm all for renewable energy, but where do the solar panels come from? You need to make them. This takes resources. These resources are difficult to acquire and manufacture into panels. This is not zero cost.
    - ericb 14y ago
      No one said zero cost. Your claim was that "you can't decrease net emissions." If solar is lower net emissions-wise, you have decreased net emissions.
      - astrodust 14y ago
        I said you can't decrease net emissions 100%, you just rephrased what I said by omitting that part.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        ericb 14y ago
        No, I quoted the exact phrasing in a child comment as it stood at the time. Your later edit made your intent clearer.
- andyl 14y ago
  Not true. Even when the source-energy is coal, Tesla reduces net emissions a lot by eliminating the inefficiency of the IC engine. And when the source-energy is solar, net emissions are even better. :-)
  - meepmorp 14y ago
    If you factor in the emissions of extracting and refining raw materials to produce the car, I wonder if the net for a Tesla is markedly better than a standard car. I don't know the answer to that, just wondering.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    I'm just saying you can't reduce emissions to zero unless you have a zero footprint solution to providing energy. There will always be some collateral damage, no matter how minor, until we're able to make solar panels out of entirely recycled materials using entirely renewable energy.

alanctgardner2 14y ago

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like a normal rotary (Wankel) engine you can buy from Mazda right now. They have some benefits, but they're not a magical cure-all - everyone except Mazda dropped development of them. Wikipedia for the lazy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

duck 14y ago
Actually, Mazda dropped the rotary a couple years ago due to efficiency issues. I think they may be working on a new model however.
lhc- 14y ago
I thought the same thing when I read the first description. But as an owner of an Rx7 (mazda's rotary car), I can assure you they are not very clean. In fact, they tend to do worse on emissions testing than cars from the same era, at least my older one does (an '88). Also, the "shockwave" part suggests this may not have sparkplugs...? If this engine really can combine the exceptional power-weight ratio and small size of the rotary with modern fuel efficiency and emissions control, it could be a legitimate contender. I don't really get why the article claims it is good for hybrids though; is it just the weight factor? You could make a small rotary hybrid right now if you wanted, if weight was the issue.
drucken 14y ago
From what little I've read [1], it does not look anything like a Wankel engine. While they both confer similar engineering benefits (though not claimed fuel benefits) compared to a reciprocating engine, the Wave Disk Generator/Engine, 1. uses compression of air/fuel mixture for ignition (like a diesel engine), not a separate ignition system 2. has an exhaust system that is both radial and circumferential using centrifugal/centripetal forces to clear the gases. Essentially exhausting all the time. 3. has an intake central and orthogonal to the plane of the rotor. Essentially continuous intake. 4. has no "hot spot" fixed housing locations for different parts of the thermodynamic cycle like in a Wankel engine, so, there is no need for a separate cooling or heat distribution system. [1] http://sites.psu.edu/mitanshshah/2012/12/03/wave-disk-generator/ http://sites.psu.edu/mitanshshah/2012/12/03/wave-disk-genera...

jerf 14y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2704614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2704614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2425762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2425762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2337237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2337237

WestCoastJustin 14y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2704614 - 626 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2425762 - 706 days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2337237 - 729 days ago One feature I wish HN had was a merge tool. Merge these threads together, and possibly multiple links per story. Then we can just merge these links/comments into the older thread. Useful for emerging stories about the inevitable "Apple i*" that get posted 50x the day of a release. Kind of like techmeme.com "More:" option.
- jerf 14y ago
  Yes, and...?
  - WestCoastJustin 14y ago
    Just wanted to give added context that this was from 2011. I've also updated my comment with my thoughts.

VeejayRampay 14y ago

It always irks me how those news of ground-breaking improvements in this and that actually never translate into improvements in greenhouse gases emissions or cleaner air (or do 10 years later in another form without my being aware of it maybe). There's already a few companies (one of them is Tesla Motors, an American company) working on cars that actually cut emissions dramatically and do in fact put a dent into the polluting, gas-guzzling model of the "modern" car paradigm.

easymovet 14y ago

It's basically a low RPM centrifugal turbine engine. which is actually perfect for recharging batteries since it's not as dangerous to have in the car a as an axially vented turbine, which runs at much higher RPM and temperature.

amalag 14y ago

Here is one with a company behind it http://www.liquidpiston.com/default.html http://www.liquidpiston.com/default.html But they don't have an animation http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/auto-blog/liquidpistons-hyper-efficient-engine-turning-the-rotary-inside-out-13817971 http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/auto-blog/liquidpi... This is a picture of all the steps: http://www.gizmag.com/liquidpistol-rotary/24623/pictures#7 http://www.gizmag.com/liquidpistol-rotary/24623/pictures#7 But I cannot understand from that.

lutusp 14y ago

> The Wave Disk Generator uses 60 percent of its fuel for propulsion; standard car engines use just 15 percent. As a result, the generator is 3.5 times more fuel efficient than typical combustion engines. " ... oh, did I mention that I flunked math?" 60 / 15 = 4, not 3.5.