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> If VF continues for anything longer than a few seconds, asystole frequently occurs. Among other things, asystole is definitive of "clinical death." This isn'

> If VF continues for anything longer than a few seconds, asystole frequently occurs. Among other things, asystole is definitive of "clinical death." This isn't true. VFib can persist for a long time (at least 20 minutes, maybe more). Furthermore, defibrillators aren't applied to an asystole heart. Nor do practitioners typically continue working after clinical death has been declared.

rosser 14y ago
"...asystole frequently occurs..." vs. "VFib can persist..." How are these incompatible?
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  "In medicine, asystole, colloquially known as flatline, is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow."[1] vs "Ventricular fibrillation (V-fib or VF) is a condition in which there is uncoordinated contraction of the cardiac muscle of the ventricles in the heart, making them quiver rather than contract properly."[2] By definition, if vfib is occuring, asystole isn't. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib
  - rosser 14y ago
    I'm aware of what both mean, and that you can't be in both states. It's the highlighted words whose incompatibility I'm questioning. That VFib can last minutes in some cases doesn't mean that it doesn't quickly lead to asystole in others. In fact, quoting from the linked Wikipedia article on VF, "If this arrhythmia continues for more than a few seconds, it will likely degenerate further into asystole ('flatline')."
    - jemfinch 14y ago
      The incorrectness in your claim was the use of the word "frequently". VFib does not "frequently" become asystole after a few seconds. It generally continues for several minutes. 2% of people who enter asystole ever recover; far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. Wikipedia seems to be missing an "eventually" in the sentence you quoted. The arrhythmia can persist for several minutes, but if it persists for more than a few seconds it will likely eventually generate into asystole without medical intervention.
      - rosser 14y ago
        far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. How many more? If it's less than, say, 60 or 70% or something, then I don't think "frequently" is terribly inapt. One-in-three is pretty damned frequent, when the one, you know, dies.
        jemfinch 14y ago
        You're bickering a lot throughout this thread with people who have training and education. I was a certified EMT and have vetted these facts with my wife, who's a veterinarian. This shouldn't be a long, drawn out battle. You said something that was incorrect--perhaps even dangerously so, since your misreading of Wikipedia could lead people to respond inappropriately in an emergency. Ventricular fibrillation is not a death sentence, but your claim made it out to be so, and needed to be corrected. At this point I think the facts have been sufficiently cleared up and you're just being unnecessarily defensive and argumentative. Please stop.
    - vacri 14y ago
      What that means is that if VF doesn't correct itself, and is left alone, it will eventually degenerate into asystole - which is the whole point of CPR and defibs, to do something before it does that. People have arrhythmias all the time and they autocorrect, but if a VF doesn't autocorrect in relatively short order, it will usually, eventually, end in death (or asystole). It's not about one rhythm versus another, it's about one rhythm leading to another, with no set timeline.

rosser 14y ago

"...asystole frequently occurs..." vs. "VFib can persist..." How are these incompatible?

SoftwareMaven 14y ago
"In medicine, asystole, colloquially known as flatline, is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow."[1] vs "Ventricular fibrillation (V-fib or VF) is a condition in which there is uncoordinated contraction of the cardiac muscle of the ventricles in the heart, making them quiver rather than contract properly."[2] By definition, if vfib is occuring, asystole isn't. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib
- rosser 14y ago
  I'm aware of what both mean, and that you can't be in both states. It's the highlighted words whose incompatibility I'm questioning. That VFib can last minutes in some cases doesn't mean that it doesn't quickly lead to asystole in others. In fact, quoting from the linked Wikipedia article on VF, "If this arrhythmia continues for more than a few seconds, it will likely degenerate further into asystole ('flatline')."
  - jemfinch 14y ago
    The incorrectness in your claim was the use of the word "frequently". VFib does not "frequently" become asystole after a few seconds. It generally continues for several minutes. 2% of people who enter asystole ever recover; far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. Wikipedia seems to be missing an "eventually" in the sentence you quoted. The arrhythmia can persist for several minutes, but if it persists for more than a few seconds it will likely eventually generate into asystole without medical intervention.
    - rosser 14y ago
      far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. How many more? If it's less than, say, 60 or 70% or something, then I don't think "frequently" is terribly inapt. One-in-three is pretty damned frequent, when the one, you know, dies.
      - jemfinch 14y ago
        You're bickering a lot throughout this thread with people who have training and education. I was a certified EMT and have vetted these facts with my wife, who's a veterinarian. This shouldn't be a long, drawn out battle. You said something that was incorrect--perhaps even dangerously so, since your misreading of Wikipedia could lead people to respond inappropriately in an emergency. Ventricular fibrillation is not a death sentence, but your claim made it out to be so, and needed to be corrected. At this point I think the facts have been sufficiently cleared up and you're just being unnecessarily defensive and argumentative. Please stop.
  - vacri 14y ago
    What that means is that if VF doesn't correct itself, and is left alone, it will eventually degenerate into asystole - which is the whole point of CPR and defibs, to do something before it does that. People have arrhythmias all the time and they autocorrect, but if a VF doesn't autocorrect in relatively short order, it will usually, eventually, end in death (or asystole). It's not about one rhythm versus another, it's about one rhythm leading to another, with no set timeline.