12 ms·

While I get the point you're trying to make, and even somewhat agree with it, there are two definitions of "death" in play. The problem isn't hyperbole; it's si

by rosser 14y ago

While I get the point you're trying to make, and even somewhat agree with it, there are two definitions of "death" in play. The problem isn't hyperbole; it's simply one of equivocating between them. There's clinical death, which the author of TFA very likely did experience. If VF continues for anything longer than a few seconds, asystole frequently occurs. Among other things, asystole is definitive of "clinical death." On the other hand, there's death death. This is the one where we bury you and mourn you and so-on. Yes, they're very much not the same thing. Yes, the author is probably equivocating between them, at least a little. But no, his describing what he experienced as "death" is not hyperbolic — at least not according to the clinical definition.

jemfinch 14y ago
> If VF continues for anything longer than a few seconds, asystole frequently occurs. Among other things, asystole is definitive of "clinical death." This isn't true. VFib can persist for a long time (at least 20 minutes, maybe more). Furthermore, defibrillators aren't applied to an asystole heart. Nor do practitioners typically continue working after clinical death has been declared.
- rosser 14y ago
  "...asystole frequently occurs..." vs. "VFib can persist..." How are these incompatible?
  - SoftwareMaven 14y ago
    "In medicine, asystole, colloquially known as flatline, is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow."[1] vs "Ventricular fibrillation (V-fib or VF) is a condition in which there is uncoordinated contraction of the cardiac muscle of the ventricles in the heart, making them quiver rather than contract properly."[2] By definition, if vfib is occuring, asystole isn't. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib
    - rosser 14y ago
      I'm aware of what both mean, and that you can't be in both states. It's the highlighted words whose incompatibility I'm questioning. That VFib can last minutes in some cases doesn't mean that it doesn't quickly lead to asystole in others. In fact, quoting from the linked Wikipedia article on VF, "If this arrhythmia continues for more than a few seconds, it will likely degenerate further into asystole ('flatline')."
      - jemfinch 14y ago
        The incorrectness in your claim was the use of the word "frequently". VFib does not "frequently" become asystole after a few seconds. It generally continues for several minutes. 2% of people who enter asystole ever recover; far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. Wikipedia seems to be missing an "eventually" in the sentence you quoted. The arrhythmia can persist for several minutes, but if it persists for more than a few seconds it will likely eventually generate into asystole without medical intervention.
        rosser 14y ago
        far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. How many more? If it's less than, say, 60 or 70% or something, then I don't think "frequently" is terribly inapt. One-in-three is pretty damned frequent, when the one, you know, dies.
        jemfinch 14y ago
        You're bickering a lot throughout this thread with people who have training and education. I was a certified EMT and have vetted these facts with my wife, who's a veterinarian. This shouldn't be a long, drawn out battle. You said something that was incorrect--perhaps even dangerously so, since your misreading of Wikipedia could lead people to respond inappropriately in an emergency. Ventricular fibrillation is not a death sentence, but your claim made it out to be so, and needed to be corrected. At this point I think the facts have been sufficiently cleared up and you're just being unnecessarily defensive and argumentative. Please stop.
nova 14y ago
This is the real, real, real death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information-theoretic_death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information-theoretic_death The other "deaths" are just technical shortcomings due to lack of research.
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  Commenting so that when the research is done, I can tease you about how you won't be privileged enough to die.
at-fates-hands 14y ago
This past week I was listening to a paranormal radio show where they discussed these different definitions. They claimed in the early 1800's people would be brought into large rooms after they had passed, and were put on tables until the corpse was literally rotting before burying them. This had to do with cultural fears of being buried alive and having people who were supposedly "dead" waking back up in their coffins. It was a rather long, but very interesting discussion. I'll try and find the podcast.
- rosser 14y ago
  Historically, when someone died and was going to be buried at sea, they'd be sewn into a sailcloth "coffin", the last stitch of which would be through the nasal septum, just to make sure.

by rosser 14y ago

jemfinch 14y ago

> If VF continues for anything longer than a few seconds, asystole frequently occurs. Among other things, asystole is definitive of "clinical death." This isn't true. VFib can persist for a long time (at least 20 minutes, maybe more). Furthermore, defibrillators aren't applied to an asystole heart. Nor do practitioners typically continue working after clinical death has been declared.

rosser 14y ago
"...asystole frequently occurs..." vs. "VFib can persist..." How are these incompatible?
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  "In medicine, asystole, colloquially known as flatline, is a state of no cardiac electrical activity, hence no contractions of the myocardium and no cardiac output or blood flow."[1] vs "Ventricular fibrillation (V-fib or VF) is a condition in which there is uncoordinated contraction of the cardiac muscle of the ventricles in the heart, making them quiver rather than contract properly."[2] By definition, if vfib is occuring, asystole isn't. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vfib
  - rosser 14y ago
    I'm aware of what both mean, and that you can't be in both states. It's the highlighted words whose incompatibility I'm questioning. That VFib can last minutes in some cases doesn't mean that it doesn't quickly lead to asystole in others. In fact, quoting from the linked Wikipedia article on VF, "If this arrhythmia continues for more than a few seconds, it will likely degenerate further into asystole ('flatline')."
    - jemfinch 14y ago
      The incorrectness in your claim was the use of the word "frequently". VFib does not "frequently" become asystole after a few seconds. It generally continues for several minutes. 2% of people who enter asystole ever recover; far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. Wikipedia seems to be missing an "eventually" in the sentence you quoted. The arrhythmia can persist for several minutes, but if it persists for more than a few seconds it will likely eventually generate into asystole without medical intervention.
      - rosser 14y ago
        far more than 2% of people who enter vfib and stay there for more than "a few seconds" recover. How many more? If it's less than, say, 60 or 70% or something, then I don't think "frequently" is terribly inapt. One-in-three is pretty damned frequent, when the one, you know, dies.
        jemfinch 14y ago
        You're bickering a lot throughout this thread with people who have training and education. I was a certified EMT and have vetted these facts with my wife, who's a veterinarian. This shouldn't be a long, drawn out battle. You said something that was incorrect--perhaps even dangerously so, since your misreading of Wikipedia could lead people to respond inappropriately in an emergency. Ventricular fibrillation is not a death sentence, but your claim made it out to be so, and needed to be corrected. At this point I think the facts have been sufficiently cleared up and you're just being unnecessarily defensive and argumentative. Please stop.

nova 14y ago

This is the real, real, real death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information-theoretic_death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information-theoretic_death The other "deaths" are just technical shortcomings due to lack of research.

eli_gottlieb 14y ago
Commenting so that when the research is done, I can tease you about how you won't be privileged enough to die.

at-fates-hands 14y ago

This past week I was listening to a paranormal radio show where they discussed these different definitions. They claimed in the early 1800's people would be brought into large rooms after they had passed, and were put on tables until the corpse was literally rotting before burying them. This had to do with cultural fears of being buried alive and having people who were supposedly "dead" waking back up in their coffins. It was a rather long, but very interesting discussion. I'll try and find the podcast.

rosser 14y ago
Historically, when someone died and was going to be buried at sea, they'd be sewn into a sailcloth "coffin", the last stitch of which would be through the nasal septum, just to make sure.