4 ms·

With the current British government angling to leave the EU at present, that's a decision that might have unpleasant consequences in a few years for any French

With the current British government angling to leave the EU at present, that's a decision that might have unpleasant consequences in a few years for any French entrepreneur that tried this, even assuming it's practical now.

yummyfajitas 14y ago
Even if Britain leaves the EU, is it really likely that they will leave the EEC? The French entrepreneur cares about free trade, not much else. And I can't see Britain or Europe shutting down trade, regardless of whether Britain sticks around or leaves.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- arethuza 14y ago
  My understanding is that the EEC merged into the EC which then became the EU - so I don't think the UK has the option to stay part of the EEC and leave the EU. Certainly EEC isn't a term that you here very often these days. NB Perhaps you mean EFTA rather than the EEC? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
  - _delirium 14y ago
    Yes, the EEC/EC was officially abolished with the Lisbon treaty in 2009 (though it was mostly merged into the EU even before then). However, it's still possible for non-EU members to be part of the EU's common market via the EEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area). EEA membership is pretty close to de-facto EU membership, though, including legislative harmonization on almost everything except agriculture/fisheries (which is what suits Norway about it), and a "voluntary" contribution that de-facto replaces EU dues. Would that satisfy UK politicians' reasons for pulling out of the EU, if they still had to pay dues and harmonize most of their legislation anyway, only without getting a vote in return? It's not clear to me they would join the EEA under those terms. And in the other direction, there's a lot of uncertainty over what they'd even have the option to join, since there's a real possibility some EU members would veto an agreement to give them an intermediate status.
    - arethuza 14y ago
      That page on the EEA seems to imply that members have to stick to EU laws - particularly around freedom of movement, which is one of the main reasons some UK politicians are keen on leaving the EU. Personally, I think that any move to leave the EU would probably contribute to a break up of the UK.
      - arrrg 14y ago
        It's absolutely non-sensical to want to be part of a common market but to not do what's necessary to actually create a common market. You can't cherry pick what you want. Freedom of labor (which necessitates freedom of movement) is just as much part of a common market as freedom of capital is. If the UK wants to leave the EU but, for example, keep freedom of capital they will be told off. If they don't want to accept some harmonization process of laws (which is necessary or else it's real simple for individual governments to erect barriers in the market) they will be told off. If they are out of the common market they are out. You can't be half in and half out. And good riddance to them.
        arethuza 14y ago
        There are lots of people in the UK who want to remain in the EU - and I'm one of them. I hope that if it looked like the UK was going to leave the EU then Scotland would leave the UK and (re)join the EU.
        gadders 14y ago
        Ha ha. "We want Scotland to be an independent country! And that sacrifice its independence to the EU." Yeah, that's logical.
        arethuza 14y ago
        Well, as I'm more attached to the EU than the UK it seems perfectly logical to me.
- rmc 14y ago
  Even if Britain leaves the EU, is it really likely that they will leave the EEC? EEC doesn't exist anymore. You may be thinking of the EFTA, which (e.g.) Norway is in. That's a free trade & customs area. However one still has to implement all EU law and allow all EU citizens to live & work there. Euroskeptic/europhobic people would not find acceptable. I don't think there is any details, but I think it's a straight in/out, i.e. leave EU & EFTA. The cynic in me thinks the politicians are delibrately giving 2 options (current EU membership and leaving EU & EFTA) so that one option is horrible in order to ahem 'help' one option win.
polshaw 14y ago
The UK government is not angling to leave the EU. The tory party (largest but not majority party) has promised, if elected in 2015, a referendum on EU membership in 2017. This was done in an attempt to head off the rising UK Independence Party and shut up some of their right-wing back-bench MPs. The same party (and both other major parties) will be pushing to stay in with the vote. But the rise in popularity for UKIP is not rooted in a dislike of the EU (although there is some, some of which is misinformed), but in issues with mass immigration - the EU enforces free movement between any EU nation (Polish population went from almost nothing to close to 1% in the years following their accession to the EU in 2004). By 2017 Bulgaria and Romania will have already completed accession. Without any prospect of stemming immigration, and the fact that the costs/benefits of EU membership will have to be actually debated, the UK is not going to vote to leave the EU. But coming back to the point; do you even need to hop on a train? (what can not be done by post?. assuming this was a suggestion to incorporate in the UK and not to base there). Regardless, even in a worst case scenario (which really, isn't going to happen), there is five years before anything changes, which would still make sense for the benefits to a startup IMO (if you still exist in 5 years, the cost of a man-week then will be much lower in 5 years). I'm not sure what the 'second best EU country to incorporate in' is, but it's surely not France. In short, the idea to use EU free trade to avoid the French issues is surely a good decision.
- rmc 14y ago
  Sure, the referendum is just a political ploy. But it might pass.... EU membership isn't up for voting in any other EU country.
- gadders 14y ago
  I think it is wider than just mass immigration. There is also the whole course of closer political union that the EU is determined upon which is wildly unpopular in the UK.
paol 14y ago
I don't believe for a second the UK is leaving the EU. It would be a huge disadvantage economically for them to do so. All that talk is just political posturing to please the idiot wing of the conservative party. (Disclaimer: I'm not from the UK however, so I'm just evaluating the situation from the outside)
- gadders 14y ago
  It would not be an economic disadvantage, and wanting to leave the EU is certainly not "idiotic".
- andyjohnson0 14y ago
  Unfortunately, the pressure for a referendum is not primarily driven by economic issues. Its driven by tabloid prejudice, and single-issue parties like UKIP who want to get a share of power.

yummyfajitas 14y ago

Even if Britain leaves the EU, is it really likely that they will leave the EEC? The French entrepreneur cares about free trade, not much else. And I can't see Britain or Europe shutting down trade, regardless of whether Britain sticks around or leaves.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
arethuza 14y ago
My understanding is that the EEC merged into the EC which then became the EU - so I don't think the UK has the option to stay part of the EEC and leave the EU. Certainly EEC isn't a term that you here very often these days. NB Perhaps you mean EFTA rather than the EEC? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
- _delirium 14y ago
  Yes, the EEC/EC was officially abolished with the Lisbon treaty in 2009 (though it was mostly merged into the EU even before then). However, it's still possible for non-EU members to be part of the EU's common market via the EEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area). EEA membership is pretty close to de-facto EU membership, though, including legislative harmonization on almost everything except agriculture/fisheries (which is what suits Norway about it), and a "voluntary" contribution that de-facto replaces EU dues. Would that satisfy UK politicians' reasons for pulling out of the EU, if they still had to pay dues and harmonize most of their legislation anyway, only without getting a vote in return? It's not clear to me they would join the EEA under those terms. And in the other direction, there's a lot of uncertainty over what they'd even have the option to join, since there's a real possibility some EU members would veto an agreement to give them an intermediate status.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    That page on the EEA seems to imply that members have to stick to EU laws - particularly around freedom of movement, which is one of the main reasons some UK politicians are keen on leaving the EU. Personally, I think that any move to leave the EU would probably contribute to a break up of the UK.
    - arrrg 14y ago
      It's absolutely non-sensical to want to be part of a common market but to not do what's necessary to actually create a common market. You can't cherry pick what you want. Freedom of labor (which necessitates freedom of movement) is just as much part of a common market as freedom of capital is. If the UK wants to leave the EU but, for example, keep freedom of capital they will be told off. If they don't want to accept some harmonization process of laws (which is necessary or else it's real simple for individual governments to erect barriers in the market) they will be told off. If they are out of the common market they are out. You can't be half in and half out. And good riddance to them.
      - arethuza 14y ago
        There are lots of people in the UK who want to remain in the EU - and I'm one of them. I hope that if it looked like the UK was going to leave the EU then Scotland would leave the UK and (re)join the EU.
        gadders 14y ago
        Ha ha. "We want Scotland to be an independent country! And that sacrifice its independence to the EU." Yeah, that's logical.
        arethuza 14y ago
        Well, as I'm more attached to the EU than the UK it seems perfectly logical to me.
rmc 14y ago
Even if Britain leaves the EU, is it really likely that they will leave the EEC? EEC doesn't exist anymore. You may be thinking of the EFTA, which (e.g.) Norway is in. That's a free trade & customs area. However one still has to implement all EU law and allow all EU citizens to live & work there. Euroskeptic/europhobic people would not find acceptable. I don't think there is any details, but I think it's a straight in/out, i.e. leave EU & EFTA. The cynic in me thinks the politicians are delibrately giving 2 options (current EU membership and leaving EU & EFTA) so that one option is horrible in order to ahem 'help' one option win.

polshaw 14y ago

The UK government is not angling to leave the EU. The tory party (largest but not majority party) has promised, if elected in 2015, a referendum on EU membership in 2017. This was done in an attempt to head off the rising UK Independence Party and shut up some of their right-wing back-bench MPs. The same party (and both other major parties) will be pushing to stay in with the vote. But the rise in popularity for UKIP is not rooted in a dislike of the EU (although there is some, some of which is misinformed), but in issues with mass immigration - the EU enforces free movement between any EU nation (Polish population went from almost nothing to close to 1% in the years following their accession to the EU in 2004). By 2017 Bulgaria and Romania will have already completed accession. Without any prospect of stemming immigration, and the fact that the costs/benefits of EU membership will have to be actually debated, the UK is not going to vote to leave the EU. But coming back to the point; do you even need to hop on a train? (what can not be done by post?. assuming this was a suggestion to incorporate in the UK and not to base there). Regardless, even in a worst case scenario (which really, isn't going to happen), there is five years before anything changes, which would still make sense for the benefits to a startup IMO (if you still exist in 5 years, the cost of a man-week then will be much lower in 5 years). I'm not sure what the 'second best EU country to incorporate in' is, but it's surely not France. In short, the idea to use EU free trade to avoid the French issues is surely a good decision.

rmc 14y ago
Sure, the referendum is just a political ploy. But it might pass.... EU membership isn't up for voting in any other EU country.
gadders 14y ago
I think it is wider than just mass immigration. There is also the whole course of closer political union that the EU is determined upon which is wildly unpopular in the UK.

paol 14y ago

I don't believe for a second the UK is leaving the EU. It would be a huge disadvantage economically for them to do so. All that talk is just political posturing to please the idiot wing of the conservative party. (Disclaimer: I'm not from the UK however, so I'm just evaluating the situation from the outside)

gadders 14y ago
It would not be an economic disadvantage, and wanting to leave the EU is certainly not "idiotic".
andyjohnson0 14y ago
Unfortunately, the pressure for a referendum is not primarily driven by economic issues. Its driven by tabloid prejudice, and single-issue parties like UKIP who want to get a share of power.