7 ms·

What's even sadder is that many if not most HN users are contributing to the surveillance apparatus by building web apps and infrastructure, promoting it, and n

by gnosis 14y ago

What's even sadder is that many if not most HN users are contributing to the surveillance apparatus by building web apps and infrastructure, promoting it, and not taking a stand against it. How many of you Googlers and Facebookers (and the legions of you working for Facebook/Google wannabes) have really thought hard about what you're doing? How many of you care? How many of you honestly want to do something to stop the pissing away of privacy to corporations and the government? I would venture to guess that it's a vanishingly small percentage. Most just want to make money, and let others worry about the consequences. Or they delude themselves in to thinking they're "changing the world" with some monumental cow-tipping app.

droopyEyelids 14y ago
I blame a lack of historical knowledge combined with the fact that we mostly exist in harmony with our governments. First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. So we don't know to do addition when we have one and one. Combine that with the fact that most of us aren't engaged in any sort of activity that incumbent power would like to disrupt. You get a false sense of security, because no one is presently leveraging any of the information they have against you. That could change the moment you had an exciting or disruptive political idea, but for now 'the system' is happy with you keeping your head down and working. If anyone wants to read a sad tale of how groups of men can use information to hurt each other, check out Out of the Night by Jan Valtin
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. I question that assumption. Even people with a superficial knowledge of history are familiar with the existence of the Gestapo and the KGB; even if they're hazy on specific methods, they get the concept of a police state just fine. Just because they may not consider the US to be a police or surveillance state to the same degree that you would does not mean that the idea is alien to them.
  - hp50g 14y ago
    They are aware of the concept but are too apathetic to act on it before it happens.
- JVIDEL 14y ago
  That guy Jan supported plain anti-democratic dictatorships and the use of espionage and murder until surprise surprise! he fell out of favor and had to suffer the same ordeals he made others go through, hardly what could happen to the average guy living in a democracy. Put simply, he played with fired and got burned.
  - droopyEyelids 14y ago
    I'm not saying to empathize with Jan, instead empathize with all the moderate social democrats the Communists and Nazis fucked over, murdered, and destroyed.
    - JVIDEL 14y ago
      Yeah you could say the same about the Nazis you know? not all of them were burning people 24/7 in the camps........but most of them did agree with it, same with communists in the west looking the other way while stalin and mao killed millions.
cgag 14y ago
It's always shocking to me how many of the people I graduated with want to go work for 'defence' contractors/intelligence agencies like the NSA. I can't tell if people don't think about the affect they're having on the world or just don't care. I don't have a problem with cow-tipping apps, I just want people to avoid actively harming the world.
- a_p 14y ago
  Working for an "intelligence" agency, especially in a field like cryptography, allows you access to state-of-the-art technologies and cutting edge research, and an enormous amount of resources that you would not have access to in a civilian job. A famous example of classified cutting edge research is the RSA algorithm which was actually discovered in 1973 by Clifford Cocks. Government agencies sometimes have reputations for employing people not smart or competent to work in the private sector. Only a handful of agencies in the U.S, such as the NSA and the CDC, have reputations for hiring highly intelligent people. The chance to work with some of the best people in your field is attractive to many people. Not all intelligence and defense contractors are created equal, and some people want to work for these companies or agencies because they think it is "cool". Most of these people find out that the job is not as "cool" as they thought it would be, and soon find employment elsewhere.
  - jff 14y ago
    I can't speak for the NSA, but the cybersecurity-type research groups I'm familiar with allow you to choose what you work on. You can choose not to work on things you find morally disagreeable while still having the opportunity to do work that has real national/international impact.
  - jackpirate 14y ago
    Most of these people find out that the job is not as "cool" as they thought it would be, and soon find employment elsewhere. I'm one of the few people I know who did this. (I used to be a Navy officer and spent time at the NSA.) By far, the vast majority of friends I had in the Navy wanted to go into defense contracting/spy agencies after they got out. Once your in the military industrial complex, there is a huge cult atmosphere about staying. Few escape.
Helianthus 14y ago
I think this place has lost a great deal of respect from the people that made it successful in the first place.
mrschwabe 14y ago
Sadder yet is that the 'surveillance apparatus' itself may be actively involved here on HN. Heck, could be happening in this thread for all we know! That is the reality of today.
hp50g 14y ago
There are still those of us who don't support total surveillance and will not stand for it. Were probably more traditional Unix people and not so embroiled in technology. Everyone else has been got if you ask me through media, social pressure or plain old apathy. However it's worse than just web sites. I've worked for a nefarious company who feeds of data like theirs. I came to my senses when asked to do things which destroyed my ethics and quit to make amends. At risk of promoting a fanatic, stallman was right for many years. Once a fanatic, then a told you so, then a visionary. I genuinely was brainwashed to think the guy was nuts until I saw it all with my own eyes. Some things you can do: * sign out of Facebook forever. There is no point in deleting your profile. Real friends meet you in real life. * close your google account. It just follows you like a leaky passport. * get a dumbphone and turn it off all day unless you need it for emergencies. * read books instead of use e-readers. * host your own mail and web services at home. Use SSL (with own CA), SSH and encrypt your email if sensitive. * ask yourself is your employer really doing ethical work. No? Find somewhere else. This is the hardest bit - it took me 10 years to find somewhere ethical. * use cash, particularly when shopping in large chains or on public transport systems. * use Firefox only, with adblock and ghostery. There are probably more.
- speeder 14y ago
  I am very proud to say that my associate was very happy to build a highly ethical company with me. We make apps for children, and don't put ads, IAP, or content that might cause bad behavior, for example one of the apps I took out a character holding candy before lunch. Too bad this gave no competitive advantage, but lots of disadvantages, thus I must be happy that the money people in the company let this strong ethical opinion.
  - hp50g 14y ago
    Good for you. I wish you both the best as an ethical company.
- MoreMoschops 14y ago
  "read books instead of use e-readers." How necessary is that? Does it depend on the eReader? I use a Sony 300 series (which I personally think is about the high point of the eReader evolution, with the exception of the 350 for more screen space in an almost identical sized casing) which is as thankfully dumb and disconnected as eReaders get. It plugs in like an external hard drive and I simply copy epub files onto it. You couldn't pay me to have a kindle (well, you could, but you'd have to pay me a lot and I'd just sell it and get another Sony).

by gnosis 14y ago

droopyEyelids 14y ago

I blame a lack of historical knowledge combined with the fact that we mostly exist in harmony with our governments. First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. So we don't know to do addition when we have one and one. Combine that with the fact that most of us aren't engaged in any sort of activity that incumbent power would like to disrupt. You get a false sense of security, because no one is presently leveraging any of the information they have against you. That could change the moment you had an exciting or disruptive political idea, but for now 'the system' is happy with you keeping your head down and working. If anyone wants to read a sad tale of how groups of men can use information to hurt each other, check out Out of the Night by Jan Valtin

anigbrowl 14y ago
First, few of us have taken the time to read accounts of how the political groups of history have used information against people. I question that assumption. Even people with a superficial knowledge of history are familiar with the existence of the Gestapo and the KGB; even if they're hazy on specific methods, they get the concept of a police state just fine. Just because they may not consider the US to be a police or surveillance state to the same degree that you would does not mean that the idea is alien to them.
- hp50g 14y ago
  They are aware of the concept but are too apathetic to act on it before it happens.
JVIDEL 14y ago
That guy Jan supported plain anti-democratic dictatorships and the use of espionage and murder until surprise surprise! he fell out of favor and had to suffer the same ordeals he made others go through, hardly what could happen to the average guy living in a democracy. Put simply, he played with fired and got burned.
- droopyEyelids 14y ago
  I'm not saying to empathize with Jan, instead empathize with all the moderate social democrats the Communists and Nazis fucked over, murdered, and destroyed.
  - JVIDEL 14y ago
    Yeah you could say the same about the Nazis you know? not all of them were burning people 24/7 in the camps........but most of them did agree with it, same with communists in the west looking the other way while stalin and mao killed millions.

cgag 14y ago

It's always shocking to me how many of the people I graduated with want to go work for 'defence' contractors/intelligence agencies like the NSA. I can't tell if people don't think about the affect they're having on the world or just don't care. I don't have a problem with cow-tipping apps, I just want people to avoid actively harming the world.

a_p 14y ago
Working for an "intelligence" agency, especially in a field like cryptography, allows you access to state-of-the-art technologies and cutting edge research, and an enormous amount of resources that you would not have access to in a civilian job. A famous example of classified cutting edge research is the RSA algorithm which was actually discovered in 1973 by Clifford Cocks. Government agencies sometimes have reputations for employing people not smart or competent to work in the private sector. Only a handful of agencies in the U.S, such as the NSA and the CDC, have reputations for hiring highly intelligent people. The chance to work with some of the best people in your field is attractive to many people. Not all intelligence and defense contractors are created equal, and some people want to work for these companies or agencies because they think it is "cool". Most of these people find out that the job is not as "cool" as they thought it would be, and soon find employment elsewhere.
- jff 14y ago
  I can't speak for the NSA, but the cybersecurity-type research groups I'm familiar with allow you to choose what you work on. You can choose not to work on things you find morally disagreeable while still having the opportunity to do work that has real national/international impact.
- jackpirate 14y ago
  Most of these people find out that the job is not as "cool" as they thought it would be, and soon find employment elsewhere. I'm one of the few people I know who did this. (I used to be a Navy officer and spent time at the NSA.) By far, the vast majority of friends I had in the Navy wanted to go into defense contracting/spy agencies after they got out. Once your in the military industrial complex, there is a huge cult atmosphere about staying. Few escape.

Helianthus 14y ago

I think this place has lost a great deal of respect from the people that made it successful in the first place.

mrschwabe 14y ago

Sadder yet is that the 'surveillance apparatus' itself may be actively involved here on HN. Heck, could be happening in this thread for all we know! That is the reality of today.

hp50g 14y ago

There are still those of us who don't support total surveillance and will not stand for it. Were probably more traditional Unix people and not so embroiled in technology. Everyone else has been got if you ask me through media, social pressure or plain old apathy. However it's worse than just web sites. I've worked for a nefarious company who feeds of data like theirs. I came to my senses when asked to do things which destroyed my ethics and quit to make amends. At risk of promoting a fanatic, stallman was right for many years. Once a fanatic, then a told you so, then a visionary. I genuinely was brainwashed to think the guy was nuts until I saw it all with my own eyes. Some things you can do: * sign out of Facebook forever. There is no point in deleting your profile. Real friends meet you in real life. * close your google account. It just follows you like a leaky passport. * get a dumbphone and turn it off all day unless you need it for emergencies. * read books instead of use e-readers. * host your own mail and web services at home. Use SSL (with own CA), SSH and encrypt your email if sensitive. * ask yourself is your employer really doing ethical work. No? Find somewhere else. This is the hardest bit - it took me 10 years to find somewhere ethical. * use cash, particularly when shopping in large chains or on public transport systems. * use Firefox only, with adblock and ghostery. There are probably more.

speeder 14y ago
I am very proud to say that my associate was very happy to build a highly ethical company with me. We make apps for children, and don't put ads, IAP, or content that might cause bad behavior, for example one of the apps I took out a character holding candy before lunch. Too bad this gave no competitive advantage, but lots of disadvantages, thus I must be happy that the money people in the company let this strong ethical opinion.
- hp50g 14y ago
  Good for you. I wish you both the best as an ethical company.
MoreMoschops 14y ago
"read books instead of use e-readers." How necessary is that? Does it depend on the eReader? I use a Sony 300 series (which I personally think is about the high point of the eReader evolution, with the exception of the 350 for more screen space in an almost identical sized casing) which is as thankfully dumb and disconnected as eReaders get. It plugs in like an external hard drive and I simply copy epub files onto it. You couldn't pay me to have a kindle (well, you could, but you'd have to pay me a lot and I'd just sell it and get another Sony).