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>What exactly is 'Vitamin D'? Cholecalciferol (D3) [1] is quite different from Ergocalciferol (D2)[2] Not as far as nutrition is concerned. Some studies have

>What exactly is 'Vitamin D'? Cholecalciferol (D3) [1] is quite different from Ergocalciferol (D2)[2] Not as far as nutrition is concerned. Some studies have indicated that D2 is slightly less potent, but the majority have shown equal efficacy. >Or take "Vitamin K" for example Same deal. You are confusing the notion that there are multiple chemical compounds that fulfill the role of a vitamin, that you need them all. They fill the same role, you need something to fill that role, not one specific form. Your whole argument seems to be an attempt at pointless pedantry, when the pedantry presented doesn't even matter to the subject at hand.

wamatt 14y ago
Not as far as nutrition is concerned. Some studies have indicated that D2 is slightly less potent, but the majority have shown equal efficacy. The evidence does not support that claim. If anything we don't know, and that's my point. [1][2] >Your whole argument seems to be an attempt at pointless pedantry, when the pedantry presented doesn't even matter to the subject at hand. No I'm saying similar to "Vitamin B". You body may be lacking in pyridoxine or cobalamin or one of the other B vitamins. They are not equivalent. The B group has been studied in far greater depth, compared to say the menaquiniones (K2 group), and there simply does not exist the same level of research. Similarly K and D are groups too, and treating them like it's a single chemical with a specific effect is just plain wrong. If you want to continue to argue please backup your claims with studies indicating K2 (any form) is equivalent to K1. A study of 11000+ men by a German cancer research center found this: "Our results suggest an inverse association between the intake of menaquinones, but not that of phylloquinone, and prostate cancer. Further studies of dietary vitamin K and prostate cancer are warranted." [3] In other words K2 intake was correlated with reduced levels of prostate cancer, and K1 was not. They are NOT the same thing and it's arrogant to dismiss this them as being functionally equivalent or assume one's body will perfectly convert between various forms as needed. [1] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/4/694.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/4/694.full [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289249 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289249 [3] Dietary intake of vitamin K and risk of prostate cancer in the Heidelberg cohort of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18400723 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18400723
- papsosouid 14y ago
  >The evidence does not support that claim What claim? >No I'm saying similar to "Vitamin B" There is no vitamin B. You clearly know this, and are deliberately posting complete nonsense. >In other words K2 intake was correlated with reduced levels of prostate cancer, and K1 was not And in the studies that found no such correlation to begin with? Pretending a single study is evidence that there's an entire family of vitamins we know noting about is so incredibly stupid I refuse to believe you are actually doing that. >it's arrogant to dismiss this them as being functionally equivalent No, it is arrogant to claim that you know everything and this guy is a total moron because he did a great job of 100% completely and totally covering all vitamins, but you want him to worry about what form of vitamin D he uses based on absolutely no evidence that it matters at all.
  - wamatt 14y ago
    >"No, it is arrogant to claim that you know everything and this guy is a total moron because he did a great job of 100% completely and totally covering all vitamins " Emotionally charged strawman. He's done some homework. My argument is that it's simply not enough. IE it's possible to be ignorant of how much one is ignorant of. There are also unknown unknowns that exist. >Pretending a single study is evidence that there's an entire family of vitamins we know noting about is so incredibly stupid I refuse to believe you are actually doing that. Another misrepresentation. I'm saying that the Vitamin K2 group is not widely understood and only recently gaining more attention in the last few years. [1] Also there is no pretending going on, simply advocating skepticism and that it's an extremely complex topic with ongoing studies often refuting "obviousness" of a prior generation of thought. I haven't even started on the role the microbiome plays in our health. The fact that there are 10x more non-human cells (100 trillion cells) in our bodies should be pause for concern and a little humbleness. We literally carry around thousands of different strands of bacteria and are only now in this decade starting to map the genetic material to figure out new advances and how these interact with the food we ingest and their systemic effects. [2][3][4] [1] http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Known/dp/1118065727 http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Know... [2] http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubiome-sequencing-your-microbiome/x/2042790?website_name=ubiome http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubiome-sequencing-your-mic... [3] http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/american-gut-what-s-in-your-gut--7/x/2042790?website_name=americangut http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/american-gut-what-s-in-you... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Microbiome_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Microbiome_Project

wamatt 14y ago

Not as far as nutrition is concerned. Some studies have indicated that D2 is slightly less potent, but the majority have shown equal efficacy. The evidence does not support that claim. If anything we don't know, and that's my point. [1][2] >Your whole argument seems to be an attempt at pointless pedantry, when the pedantry presented doesn't even matter to the subject at hand. No I'm saying similar to "Vitamin B". You body may be lacking in pyridoxine or cobalamin or one of the other B vitamins. They are not equivalent. The B group has been studied in far greater depth, compared to say the menaquiniones (K2 group), and there simply does not exist the same level of research. Similarly K and D are groups too, and treating them like it's a single chemical with a specific effect is just plain wrong. If you want to continue to argue please backup your claims with studies indicating K2 (any form) is equivalent to K1. A study of 11000+ men by a German cancer research center found this: "Our results suggest an inverse association between the intake of menaquinones, but not that of phylloquinone, and prostate cancer. Further studies of dietary vitamin K and prostate cancer are warranted." [3] In other words K2 intake was correlated with reduced levels of prostate cancer, and K1 was not. They are NOT the same thing and it's arrogant to dismiss this them as being functionally equivalent or assume one's body will perfectly convert between various forms as needed. [1] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/4/694.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/4/694.full [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289249 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289249 [3] Dietary intake of vitamin K and risk of prostate cancer in the Heidelberg cohort of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18400723 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18400723

papsosouid 14y ago
>The evidence does not support that claim What claim? >No I'm saying similar to "Vitamin B" There is no vitamin B. You clearly know this, and are deliberately posting complete nonsense. >In other words K2 intake was correlated with reduced levels of prostate cancer, and K1 was not And in the studies that found no such correlation to begin with? Pretending a single study is evidence that there's an entire family of vitamins we know noting about is so incredibly stupid I refuse to believe you are actually doing that. >it's arrogant to dismiss this them as being functionally equivalent No, it is arrogant to claim that you know everything and this guy is a total moron because he did a great job of 100% completely and totally covering all vitamins, but you want him to worry about what form of vitamin D he uses based on absolutely no evidence that it matters at all.
- wamatt 14y ago
  >"No, it is arrogant to claim that you know everything and this guy is a total moron because he did a great job of 100% completely and totally covering all vitamins " Emotionally charged strawman. He's done some homework. My argument is that it's simply not enough. IE it's possible to be ignorant of how much one is ignorant of. There are also unknown unknowns that exist. >Pretending a single study is evidence that there's an entire family of vitamins we know noting about is so incredibly stupid I refuse to believe you are actually doing that. Another misrepresentation. I'm saying that the Vitamin K2 group is not widely understood and only recently gaining more attention in the last few years. [1] Also there is no pretending going on, simply advocating skepticism and that it's an extremely complex topic with ongoing studies often refuting "obviousness" of a prior generation of thought. I haven't even started on the role the microbiome plays in our health. The fact that there are 10x more non-human cells (100 trillion cells) in our bodies should be pause for concern and a little humbleness. We literally carry around thousands of different strands of bacteria and are only now in this decade starting to map the genetic material to figure out new advances and how these interact with the food we ingest and their systemic effects. [2][3][4] [1] http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Known/dp/1118065727 http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Know... [2] http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubiome-sequencing-your-microbiome/x/2042790?website_name=ubiome http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubiome-sequencing-your-mic... [3] http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/american-gut-what-s-in-your-gut--7/x/2042790?website_name=americangut http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/american-gut-what-s-in-you... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Microbiome_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Microbiome_Project