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> Sure, the HTML + JS runtime on FirefoxOS is Gecko, but that's an implementation detail. The browser itself, as users will experience it, is Just Another Webap

> Sure, the HTML + JS runtime on FirefoxOS is Gecko, but that's an implementation detail. The browser itself, as users will experience it, is Just Another Webapp. Except that it's NOT, because the core of the whole thing -- HTML + JS -- is native. Apple does the same thing on iOS -- you can use UIWebView to render HTML/CSS, and to execute JS. Yet that wasn't good enough for Mozilla -- why?

deleted 14y ago
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sp332 14y ago
Apple doesn't allow 3rd party apps to use their JIT, which means all the JS is slow. http://daringfireball.net/2011/03/nitro_ios_43 http://daringfireball.net/2011/03/nitro_ios_43 And they're not allowed to make certain calls into the OS to make a fast native JIT, even if they wanted to make their own browser from scratch. So due to artificial policy decisions, it's doomed to be slow.
- pifflesnort 14y ago
  > And they're not allowed to make certain calls into the OS to make a fast native JIT, even if they wanted to make their own browser from scratch. So due to artificial policy decisions, it's doomed to be slow Yeah, and Firefox doesn't allow native code execution at all either, so, also slow. Mozilla doesn't have the moral high-ground here, in that they're also creating two tiers of developer: Mozilla, and everyone else.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - sp332 14y ago
    At least if Chrome made a version like they did with iOS (just a wrapper around the native web engine) it would have a JIT. That would be an improvement over the iOS version.
    - pifflesnort 14y ago
      That's pretty much splitting hairs. Let's say Google wants to push forward dart, NaCL, or something Mozilla has never thought of, or would never agree with. Now what?
      - sp332 14y ago
        That is already the situation with native apps. That's what the real competition is! Not Firefox vs Chrome but open standards vs closed platforms. The point of the Firefox OS project is to make standards-based HTML+JS the most appealing platform for developing and deploying mobile apps. They need to make it better than native apps on any platform, and at least as good as any non-standard web technology. There is very little point in making a Dart app when a JS app is within 10% as fast and runs on every platform.
        pifflesnort 14y ago
        Except for the fact that world-changing technologies like the web would never have existed if nobody was permitted the first web browsers because platform vendors limited everyone to gopher. I don't want to live in that two-tier world of web vendors and everyone else.
        sp332 14y ago
        Maybe that's true, but it's really a different conversation. We were talking about getting your choice of web browser on a mobile OS. You're always going to be at the mercy of a platform vendor - Mozilla, Apple, Linus Torvalds, Intel. Honestly at least Mozilla are trying for an open development process, more than anyone else. Even Android's source only gets published after the code has already shipped. I trust Mozilla more than anyone except maybe the Linux project itself to do right by application developers.
callahad 14y ago
> you can use UIWebView to render HTML/CSS, and to execute JS. Yet that wasn't good enough for Mozilla -- why? One issue is that Apple gives themselves a much faster version WebKit, but doesn't let anyone else use it. If you want to be a browser on iOS, you have to use an intentionally crippled engine. Another is that Apple's iron grip on iOS is in direct opposition to the Mozilla Manifesto. Mozilla simply can't be a party to that platform without compromising its values. That second issue is at the heart of FirefoxOS.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

sp332 14y ago

Apple doesn't allow 3rd party apps to use their JIT, which means all the JS is slow. http://daringfireball.net/2011/03/nitro_ios_43 http://daringfireball.net/2011/03/nitro_ios_43 And they're not allowed to make certain calls into the OS to make a fast native JIT, even if they wanted to make their own browser from scratch. So due to artificial policy decisions, it's doomed to be slow.

pifflesnort 14y ago
> And they're not allowed to make certain calls into the OS to make a fast native JIT, even if they wanted to make their own browser from scratch. So due to artificial policy decisions, it's doomed to be slow Yeah, and Firefox doesn't allow native code execution at all either, so, also slow. Mozilla doesn't have the moral high-ground here, in that they're also creating two tiers of developer: Mozilla, and everyone else.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- sp332 14y ago
  At least if Chrome made a version like they did with iOS (just a wrapper around the native web engine) it would have a JIT. That would be an improvement over the iOS version.
  - pifflesnort 14y ago
    That's pretty much splitting hairs. Let's say Google wants to push forward dart, NaCL, or something Mozilla has never thought of, or would never agree with. Now what?
    - sp332 14y ago
      That is already the situation with native apps. That's what the real competition is! Not Firefox vs Chrome but open standards vs closed platforms. The point of the Firefox OS project is to make standards-based HTML+JS the most appealing platform for developing and deploying mobile apps. They need to make it better than native apps on any platform, and at least as good as any non-standard web technology. There is very little point in making a Dart app when a JS app is within 10% as fast and runs on every platform.
      - pifflesnort 14y ago
        Except for the fact that world-changing technologies like the web would never have existed if nobody was permitted the first web browsers because platform vendors limited everyone to gopher. I don't want to live in that two-tier world of web vendors and everyone else.
        sp332 14y ago
        Maybe that's true, but it's really a different conversation. We were talking about getting your choice of web browser on a mobile OS. You're always going to be at the mercy of a platform vendor - Mozilla, Apple, Linus Torvalds, Intel. Honestly at least Mozilla are trying for an open development process, more than anyone else. Even Android's source only gets published after the code has already shipped. I trust Mozilla more than anyone except maybe the Linux project itself to do right by application developers.

callahad 14y ago

> you can use UIWebView to render HTML/CSS, and to execute JS. Yet that wasn't good enough for Mozilla -- why? One issue is that Apple gives themselves a much faster version WebKit, but doesn't let anyone else use it. If you want to be a browser on iOS, you have to use an intentionally crippled engine. Another is that Apple's iron grip on iOS is in direct opposition to the Mozilla Manifesto. Mozilla simply can't be a party to that platform without compromising its values. That second issue is at the heart of FirefoxOS.