7 ms·

Firefox OS Simulator – previewing version 3.0

65 points by rnyman 14y ago

anon1385 14y ago
Does it support third party browsers yet? To quote Harvey Anderson, Mozilla’s General Counsel [1]: The prospect that the next generation of Windows on ARM devices would limit users to one browser is untenable and represents a first step toward a new platform lock-in. If Windows users deserve choice then surely Firefox OS users deserve choice as well. It can't be a desktop vs mobile thing because Mozilla are campaigning for Firefox to be allowed on iOS [2]. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-users-need-browser-choice-too/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-user... [2] http://news.cnet.com/8301-14013_3-57573440/mozilla-says-no-plans-to-return-to-ios/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-14013_3-57573440/mozilla-says-no-p...
- dbaupp 14y ago
  Isn't this question essentially the same as "does <device> support other operating systems?", since the rendering engine is built into the system as the underlying graphics toolkit. (Presumably there is nothing stopping someone implementing a browser in a HTML5 canvas, and Mozilla certainly wouldn't "ban" such an app.)
  - anon1385 14y ago
    >the rendering engine is built into the system as the underlying graphics toolkit. As far as I know Windows RT supports developing apps in Javascript/CSS so it sounds like Trident is pretty built in to Windows RT. That has not stopped Mozilla calling for the ability to bring Firefox to Windows RT [1]. >(Presumably there is nothing stopping someone implementing a browser in a HTML5 canvas, and Mozilla certainly wouldn't "ban" such an app.) There is nothing stopping Mozilla doing that for iOS but they (rightly) want to be able to release a browser that has decent performance. [1] http://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-users-need-browser-choice-too/ http://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-users...
    - streptomycin 14y ago
      "supports developing apps in Javascript/CSS" and "literally everything is Javascript/CSS" are very different things.
  - Millennium 14y ago
    I'd call "being wildly impractical from a performance standpoint" pretty effective at stopping someone from implementing a browser in an HTML5 canvas.
- sp332 14y ago
  The "browser" in Firefox OS is just another window. Since the whole OS is a browser, they don't have separate code for the browser app. If you want another browser, you just have to write it up in HTML + JS, like every other app on the device.
  - Millennium 14y ago
    Sounds kind of like what Microsoft said when they were first "integrating" IE into the system.
    - sp332 14y ago
      Well, Netscape etc. cost money at the time MS included IE with Windows. They were using their market position in the desktop space to elbow into the browser space. That was a clear abuse of a monopoly. Mozilla doesn't have a monopoly, so they can't abuse it. And now, most of their competition is also free, so giving a browser away for free isn't anti-competitive. Besides, the OS is literally a browser. The only way to avoid having a default browser is to remove the little Firefox-branded app that opens a new gecko window. That doesn't seem to promote competition at all.
      - Millennium 14y ago
        That smacks far too much of "it's not wrong when WE do it." Microsoft ruined this sort of integration for everybody.
        sp332 14y ago
        Firefox isn't trying to compete with anyone though. They're not interested in blocking competition. In fact, they're trying to encourage web apps that run on every device over native apps that only run on one platform. If everyone switches to a more open system, the Mozilla team will be ecstatic.
        anon1385 14y ago
- maxerickson 14y ago
  Is it a product yet (which is sort of a pertinent question when you start talking about some definitions of support)? The intent seems to be to document the OS abstraction layer and have the capability to launch applications that do not depend on the browser layer: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/Platform/Gonk https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/...
- streptomycin 14y ago
  Yes, you can run any browser you want on Linux.
  - thelukester 14y ago
    WRONG. You can run any browser you want on Darwin. iOS uses the Darwin kernel, but you CANNOT run any browser engine under iOS.
    - shardling 14y ago
      Their point was that, deeper down, FFOS is running on Linux. I have no idea why you brought Darwin into the conversation.
      - anon1385 14y ago
        (S)he expressed it badly, but I think the point was fairly clear: just because the Linux kernel is open doesn't mean FirefoxOS allows you to run arbitrary native software, in the same way that Darwin[1] being open doesn't mean iOS allows you to run arbitrary native software. [1] I'm not sure that the iOS version of Darwin actually is totally open source, but for the sake of argument I'm going to assume that enough of the code is available that you could cobble together a phone that runs Darwin and then run whatever software you wanted on it
- lucian1900 14y ago
  Yes, Firefox OS also supports native apps. It is likely that Opera will port their mobile browser.
- azakai 14y ago
  > Does it support third party browsers yet? Firefox OS is a browser. Asking if it supports other browsers is like asking if the Linux kernel supports BSD, Windows and Darwin. In other words, if you replace Gecko in Firefox OS, you are left with nothing of Firefox OS. Just the underlying Linux kernel basically. So technically this just makes no sense. The situation is different on iOS, Android, etc. - web browsers are just another app there. Many browsers run on Android, and the only reason they do not run on iOS is policy, not technical matters.
  - criley 14y ago
    So, all Microsoft has to do is define their operating system in terms of a browser and they can successfully and easily lock out all other browsers?
    - azakai 14y ago
      Not "define" as in changing some words. If they actually made an OS that was almost entirely IE, then sure, it would be pointless to ask for other browsers to run on it - because running another browser would mean replacing the OS with something else, just like with Firefox OS. The only OSes like that are Chrome OS and Firefox OS (edit: and WebOS). Windows, Android, iOS, etc. are not browser based, so it make sense to ask for other browsers to run on them.
shardling 14y ago
Firefox OS is two things: an idea, and a particular implementation of that idea. The idea is that you write apps in HTML/js/etc, using some well-defined APIs to access the underlying hardware capabilities. The implementation is an underlying Linux system (Gonk), and Firefox's rendering/javascript/etc engines. If you ask, 'can it run alternate browsers', what exactly are you asking? The browser app of FF OS is written the same way other apps are -- in that sense you definitely can. But it'll still be running on top of Gecko et al. Ok, so can you replace Gonk/Gecko with some other underlying implementation? Well, that's kind of the whole idea! But if you do that, you won't be running FF OS anymore. The reason we care about alternate browsers is choice. FF OS enables choice by promoting standards. They want an app written for the system to work just as well on Chrome or Safari (whenever Google/Apple get around to implementing the same APIs.)
- msh 14y ago
  so if IE promoted standards it would be ok by you if they disallowed other browsers on windows?
  - callahad 14y ago
    That's not analogous by any stretch of the imagination. Policy around web standards in IE would have zero bearing on why people are actually locked into Windows: the non-portable, native applications.
    - devcpp 14y ago
      Exactly. If they called it Internet Explorer OS, why not? But not while abusively using the Windows brand name that most people would blindly get because they don't know better.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago

65 points by rnyman 14y ago

Does it support third party browsers yet? To quote Harvey Anderson, Mozilla’s General Counsel [1]: The prospect that the next generation of Windows on ARM devices would limit users to one browser is untenable and represents a first step toward a new platform lock-in. If Windows users deserve choice then surely Firefox OS users deserve choice as well. It can't be a desktop vs mobile thing because Mozilla are campaigning for Firefox to be allowed on iOS [2]. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-users-need-browser-choice-too/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-user... [2] http://news.cnet.com/8301-14013_3-57573440/mozilla-says-no-plans-to-return-to-ios/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-14013_3-57573440/mozilla-says-no-p...

dbaupp 14y ago
Isn't this question essentially the same as "does <device> support other operating systems?", since the rendering engine is built into the system as the underlying graphics toolkit. (Presumably there is nothing stopping someone implementing a browser in a HTML5 canvas, and Mozilla certainly wouldn't "ban" such an app.)
- anon1385 14y ago
  >the rendering engine is built into the system as the underlying graphics toolkit. As far as I know Windows RT supports developing apps in Javascript/CSS so it sounds like Trident is pretty built in to Windows RT. That has not stopped Mozilla calling for the ability to bring Firefox to Windows RT [1]. >(Presumably there is nothing stopping someone implementing a browser in a HTML5 canvas, and Mozilla certainly wouldn't "ban" such an app.) There is nothing stopping Mozilla doing that for iOS but they (rightly) want to be able to release a browser that has decent performance. [1] http://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-users-need-browser-choice-too/ http://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2012/05/09/windows-on-arm-users...
  - streptomycin 14y ago
    "supports developing apps in Javascript/CSS" and "literally everything is Javascript/CSS" are very different things.
- Millennium 14y ago
  I'd call "being wildly impractical from a performance standpoint" pretty effective at stopping someone from implementing a browser in an HTML5 canvas.
sp332 14y ago
The "browser" in Firefox OS is just another window. Since the whole OS is a browser, they don't have separate code for the browser app. If you want another browser, you just have to write it up in HTML + JS, like every other app on the device.
- Millennium 14y ago
  Sounds kind of like what Microsoft said when they were first "integrating" IE into the system.
  - sp332 14y ago
    Well, Netscape etc. cost money at the time MS included IE with Windows. They were using their market position in the desktop space to elbow into the browser space. That was a clear abuse of a monopoly. Mozilla doesn't have a monopoly, so they can't abuse it. And now, most of their competition is also free, so giving a browser away for free isn't anti-competitive. Besides, the OS is literally a browser. The only way to avoid having a default browser is to remove the little Firefox-branded app that opens a new gecko window. That doesn't seem to promote competition at all.
    - Millennium 14y ago
      That smacks far too much of "it's not wrong when WE do it." Microsoft ruined this sort of integration for everybody.
      - sp332 14y ago
        Firefox isn't trying to compete with anyone though. They're not interested in blocking competition. In fact, they're trying to encourage web apps that run on every device over native apps that only run on one platform. If everyone switches to a more open system, the Mozilla team will be ecstatic.
        anon1385 14y ago
maxerickson 14y ago
Is it a product yet (which is sort of a pertinent question when you start talking about some definitions of support)? The intent seems to be to document the OS abstraction layer and have the capability to launch applications that do not depend on the browser layer: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/Platform/Gonk https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_OS/...
streptomycin 14y ago
Yes, you can run any browser you want on Linux.
- thelukester 14y ago
  WRONG. You can run any browser you want on Darwin. iOS uses the Darwin kernel, but you CANNOT run any browser engine under iOS.
  - shardling 14y ago
    Their point was that, deeper down, FFOS is running on Linux. I have no idea why you brought Darwin into the conversation.
    - anon1385 14y ago
      (S)he expressed it badly, but I think the point was fairly clear: just because the Linux kernel is open doesn't mean FirefoxOS allows you to run arbitrary native software, in the same way that Darwin[1] being open doesn't mean iOS allows you to run arbitrary native software. [1] I'm not sure that the iOS version of Darwin actually is totally open source, but for the sake of argument I'm going to assume that enough of the code is available that you could cobble together a phone that runs Darwin and then run whatever software you wanted on it
lucian1900 14y ago
Yes, Firefox OS also supports native apps. It is likely that Opera will port their mobile browser.
azakai 14y ago
> Does it support third party browsers yet? Firefox OS is a browser. Asking if it supports other browsers is like asking if the Linux kernel supports BSD, Windows and Darwin. In other words, if you replace Gecko in Firefox OS, you are left with nothing of Firefox OS. Just the underlying Linux kernel basically. So technically this just makes no sense. The situation is different on iOS, Android, etc. - web browsers are just another app there. Many browsers run on Android, and the only reason they do not run on iOS is policy, not technical matters.
- criley 14y ago
  So, all Microsoft has to do is define their operating system in terms of a browser and they can successfully and easily lock out all other browsers?
  - azakai 14y ago
    Not "define" as in changing some words. If they actually made an OS that was almost entirely IE, then sure, it would be pointless to ask for other browsers to run on it - because running another browser would mean replacing the OS with something else, just like with Firefox OS. The only OSes like that are Chrome OS and Firefox OS (edit: and WebOS). Windows, Android, iOS, etc. are not browser based, so it make sense to ask for other browsers to run on them.

shardling 14y ago

Firefox OS is two things: an idea, and a particular implementation of that idea. The idea is that you write apps in HTML/js/etc, using some well-defined APIs to access the underlying hardware capabilities. The implementation is an underlying Linux system (Gonk), and Firefox's rendering/javascript/etc engines. If you ask, 'can it run alternate browsers', what exactly are you asking? The browser app of FF OS is written the same way other apps are -- in that sense you definitely can. But it'll still be running on top of Gecko et al. Ok, so can you replace Gonk/Gecko with some other underlying implementation? Well, that's kind of the whole idea! But if you do that, you won't be running FF OS anymore. The reason we care about alternate browsers is choice. FF OS enables choice by promoting standards. They want an app written for the system to work just as well on Chrome or Safari (whenever Google/Apple get around to implementing the same APIs.)

msh 14y ago
so if IE promoted standards it would be ok by you if they disallowed other browsers on windows?
- callahad 14y ago
  That's not analogous by any stretch of the imagination. Policy around web standards in IE would have zero bearing on why people are actually locked into Windows: the non-portable, native applications.
  - devcpp 14y ago
    Exactly. If they called it Internet Explorer OS, why not? But not while abusively using the Windows brand name that most people would blindly get because they don't know better.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
MatthewPhillips 14y ago