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I feel like I'm trapped in an HN parody. It's precisely because I want HN to be a site where people engage in meaningful discussion that I try to discourage pe

by pg 14y ago

I feel like I'm trapped in an HN parody. It's precisely because I want HN to be a site where people engage in meaningful discussion that I try to discourage people from upvoting the first dismissive comment they come across. Even discourage is probably too strong a word though. I feel like someone standing in the surf, trying to hold back a breaking wave with his hand. (I didn't answer his question because other users already had: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5363492 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5363492)

hallowtech 14y ago
Maybe you should allow downvoting for everyone then. I'm more likely to downvote a dismissive reply then I am to upvote every positive reply to overtake it. And on the mention of dismissive comments: as a frequent visitor I feel emotionally safer just reading and not posting... so if there is a karma threshold for allowing downvotes, I doubt I will ever hit it.
- ihuman 14y ago
  The problem is that people would abuse the downvote button and use it as a representation of "I disagree with you" is read of "this comment adds no value to the conversation."
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    Or sign up shill accounts to repeatedly downvote people they don't like.
  - cpeterso 14y ago
    Disallow both up and down vote buttons for the top comment. The top few comments will rise together, taking turns having vote buttons or not.
  - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
    Even with the current restrictions people still use it quite extensively as a "I disagree" button.
    - mintplant 14y ago
      Interesting. The "reply" link is hidden for some comments - but not others - such as this one, yet I am able to bypass it by modifying the "reply" URL. Is this something new, or simply something I hadn't noticed before?
      - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
        Just click "link" above the post and the reply box appears.
        mintplant 14y ago
        Right. Hm. I wonder why it does that.
        UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
        Save space. If it had to have a "reply" button after every reply in a large comment block it would not be able to fit very many comments on the page. They really should scrap the reply link entirely and move it next to the "flag" button e.g. | reply
        mintplant 14y ago
        Mm, can't be that. If you highlight the area under the comment, there's a row of dashes ("-----") where the "reply" button should be. It takes up the same amount of space.
        brudgers 14y ago
        To slow down deeply nested short responses because they tend to contribute little to the overall discussion. This thread is an example of why the delay is implemented, and this comment is an example of low value comments.
    - jessaustin 14y ago
      And the karma limit is intended to ensure that the people who take this quite expected action have good taste.
  - olivier1664 14y ago
    1- Is it really a problem for the thread? If nobody agree with my comment, is it a so wrong action to pseudo-hide my comment to next readers? 2- Why users with karma will have a better understanding of downvote than the passives old-regular-readers? Peoples who read HN every days love the high level of the comments here, let them have produce some feed back. Note that I just defend my interest: I'm not good at creating comment with value (so I do not comment a lot), but I feel confident to reconise good comments from bad comments.
- kevinskii 14y ago
  This is a great suggestion. Perhaps a good compromise would be to tie downvoting ability to a "number of days visited" threshold, rather than a karma threshold. Those who visit HN often but comment rarely may be particularly well qualified to judge whether a comment is constructive. Edit: This might work best for voting ability in general, not just downvoting ability.
cperciva 14y ago
the first dismissive comment I guess that's where we disagree then: I didn't see that comment as being dismissive, but rather as raising a legitimate question. I serve as an alumni representative on a number of committees at my alma mater, and it's very rare that a proposal comes to us and does not meet with any criticism. This isn't because we have lots of horrible proposals coming to us or because we're grouchy old academics; it's because even if we like the general idea behind something, the precise details are rarely perfect. It's very rare for us to actually vote against something, and even proposals being withdrawn are rare; but there are a great many ideas which are changed -- and hopefully improved -- as a result of the criticisms they receive. If jug6ernaut had written "a Hacker News t-shirt? What a dumb idea... I get lots of free t-shirts and if I donate $13 directly then Watsi ends up with far more money" then I would have said that he was being dismissive and the comment was not useful. But he didn't; instead, he asked a question about the detail -- is this the best design for a HN t-shirt? Is it too minimalist? -- and implicitly suggested a potential improvement. It's natural, having spent time working on something, to view any criticism as an attack to be defended against; but the more we can deny that impulse and give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their motives in raising questions, the more useful I think our discussions can be.
- corwinstephen 14y ago
  Agreed. It seems like pg's gripe with the comment is purely that it isn't 100% supportive. If that's the case, we're at odds here, because I prefer honesty over feigned support any day. At the end of the day, this t-shirt design was selected because someone thought Hackernews people would like it, buy it, and in turn support a good cause. If Hackernews doesn't like it, then the effort has failed on all three counts, and the fact that anyone would reject this reality with a condescending wave of the hand leads me to believe that this project was never about contributing to the hacker community or helping humanity; It seems more like an exercise in ego inflation.
mixmax 14y ago
I don't think it's dismissive - it's a valid question, it was the first question that popped into my head too when seeing it. "What's the point of this?" I simply didn't (and still don't) understand it. That's very different from a dismissive "What's the point of {launching some startup}" which is often not very helpful. I think, however, that this was a genuine question, and one I'd like answered since I have the same question myself. Which is why I upvoted it. Maybe there's a meaning I don't get, maybe there's a clever trick I'm not seeing. If there is I'd love to know so I can appreciate it.
erickhill 14y ago
I would take jug6ernaut's top comment up there and print it on the back of the shirt (with his permission, of course).
edw519 14y ago
I feel like I'm trapped in an HN parody. Congratulations! We have a winner. You have just won first place in the crowd sourced competition for the front of V2.0 of the official Hacker News Tshirt. Honorable mention: Wear something people want. Correlation != clothesation. Fuck. That. Shirt. Take off this shirt and get back to work. Shirt early. Shirt often. Made from 100% down (votes). I clicked "threads" and got this shirt. RSS (Real Soft Shirt) Y Combed Cotton
- mintplant 14y ago
  Don't forget the runner-up, Unknown or expired link.
  - caw 14y ago
    That one didn't get enough votes for obvious reasons.
- mieubrisse 14y ago
  I'm assuming you're continuing the HN parody and intentionally making a silly comment, but by making such a parody you cross the line from parody to reality. The mind boggles...
- jboy 14y ago
  I realise I'm ignoring about two levels of irony here, but "Wear something people want." would actually be a great front for an Official HN T. Inside enough that you need to know about YC to recognize that slogan, but general enough that just about any HN regular should get it. (To anyone else, it would simply seem like an intentionally abstract or unintentionally opaque statement, almost like Engrish.) Plus, that sequence of 4 words is very Google-able, for anyone curious enough to want to know more...
- obituary_latte 14y ago
  Aww you were so close... *Y Cottonator
- nextstep 14y ago
jedberg 14y ago
This is how we felt every time we announced a new reddit feature on reddit. :)
hakaaaaak 14y ago
You're a good guy, Paul. And I agree that things get too cynical and too negative. Please continue to foster an environment that is positive and provide a good example, but if people feel like they are being manipulated, they are going to get pissed off. I used to get more pissed off than I do now, but I still get upset. I wish I didn't. I wish that everyone could live in peace and work together. Maybe if HN we're self-policing via ability to flag comments and posts where enough flags means that it shows as username only with no post title/comment show unless "show" is clicked, no downvoting (a flagged and hidden post or comment could rank at the top), and without the user banning/ghosting stuff...

by pg 14y ago

hallowtech 14y ago

Maybe you should allow downvoting for everyone then. I'm more likely to downvote a dismissive reply then I am to upvote every positive reply to overtake it. And on the mention of dismissive comments: as a frequent visitor I feel emotionally safer just reading and not posting... so if there is a karma threshold for allowing downvotes, I doubt I will ever hit it.

ihuman 14y ago
The problem is that people would abuse the downvote button and use it as a representation of "I disagree with you" is read of "this comment adds no value to the conversation."
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Or sign up shill accounts to repeatedly downvote people they don't like.
- cpeterso 14y ago
  Disallow both up and down vote buttons for the top comment. The top few comments will rise together, taking turns having vote buttons or not.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  Even with the current restrictions people still use it quite extensively as a "I disagree" button.
  - mintplant 14y ago
    Interesting. The "reply" link is hidden for some comments - but not others - such as this one, yet I am able to bypass it by modifying the "reply" URL. Is this something new, or simply something I hadn't noticed before?
    - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
      Just click "link" above the post and the reply box appears.
      - mintplant 14y ago
        Right. Hm. I wonder why it does that.
        UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
        Save space. If it had to have a "reply" button after every reply in a large comment block it would not be able to fit very many comments on the page. They really should scrap the reply link entirely and move it next to the "flag" button e.g. | reply
        mintplant 14y ago
        Mm, can't be that. If you highlight the area under the comment, there's a row of dashes ("-----") where the "reply" button should be. It takes up the same amount of space.
        brudgers 14y ago
        To slow down deeply nested short responses because they tend to contribute little to the overall discussion. This thread is an example of why the delay is implemented, and this comment is an example of low value comments.
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    And the karma limit is intended to ensure that the people who take this quite expected action have good taste.
- olivier1664 14y ago
  1- Is it really a problem for the thread? If nobody agree with my comment, is it a so wrong action to pseudo-hide my comment to next readers? 2- Why users with karma will have a better understanding of downvote than the passives old-regular-readers? Peoples who read HN every days love the high level of the comments here, let them have produce some feed back. Note that I just defend my interest: I'm not good at creating comment with value (so I do not comment a lot), but I feel confident to reconise good comments from bad comments.
kevinskii 14y ago
This is a great suggestion. Perhaps a good compromise would be to tie downvoting ability to a "number of days visited" threshold, rather than a karma threshold. Those who visit HN often but comment rarely may be particularly well qualified to judge whether a comment is constructive. Edit: This might work best for voting ability in general, not just downvoting ability.

cperciva 14y ago

the first dismissive comment I guess that's where we disagree then: I didn't see that comment as being dismissive, but rather as raising a legitimate question. I serve as an alumni representative on a number of committees at my alma mater, and it's very rare that a proposal comes to us and does not meet with any criticism. This isn't because we have lots of horrible proposals coming to us or because we're grouchy old academics; it's because even if we like the general idea behind something, the precise details are rarely perfect. It's very rare for us to actually vote against something, and even proposals being withdrawn are rare; but there are a great many ideas which are changed -- and hopefully improved -- as a result of the criticisms they receive. If jug6ernaut had written "a Hacker News t-shirt? What a dumb idea... I get lots of free t-shirts and if I donate $13 directly then Watsi ends up with far more money" then I would have said that he was being dismissive and the comment was not useful. But he didn't; instead, he asked a question about the detail -- is this the best design for a HN t-shirt? Is it too minimalist? -- and implicitly suggested a potential improvement. It's natural, having spent time working on something, to view any criticism as an attack to be defended against; but the more we can deny that impulse and give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their motives in raising questions, the more useful I think our discussions can be.

corwinstephen 14y ago
Agreed. It seems like pg's gripe with the comment is purely that it isn't 100% supportive. If that's the case, we're at odds here, because I prefer honesty over feigned support any day. At the end of the day, this t-shirt design was selected because someone thought Hackernews people would like it, buy it, and in turn support a good cause. If Hackernews doesn't like it, then the effort has failed on all three counts, and the fact that anyone would reject this reality with a condescending wave of the hand leads me to believe that this project was never about contributing to the hacker community or helping humanity; It seems more like an exercise in ego inflation.

mixmax 14y ago

I don't think it's dismissive - it's a valid question, it was the first question that popped into my head too when seeing it. "What's the point of this?" I simply didn't (and still don't) understand it. That's very different from a dismissive "What's the point of {launching some startup}" which is often not very helpful. I think, however, that this was a genuine question, and one I'd like answered since I have the same question myself. Which is why I upvoted it. Maybe there's a meaning I don't get, maybe there's a clever trick I'm not seeing. If there is I'd love to know so I can appreciate it.

erickhill 14y ago

I would take jug6ernaut's top comment up there and print it on the back of the shirt (with his permission, of course).

edw519 14y ago

I feel like I'm trapped in an HN parody. Congratulations! We have a winner. You have just won first place in the crowd sourced competition for the front of V2.0 of the official Hacker News Tshirt. Honorable mention: Wear something people want. Correlation != clothesation. Fuck. That. Shirt. Take off this shirt and get back to work. Shirt early. Shirt often. Made from 100% down (votes). I clicked "threads" and got this shirt. RSS (Real Soft Shirt) Y Combed Cotton

mintplant 14y ago
Don't forget the runner-up, Unknown or expired link.
- caw 14y ago
  That one didn't get enough votes for obvious reasons.
mieubrisse 14y ago
I'm assuming you're continuing the HN parody and intentionally making a silly comment, but by making such a parody you cross the line from parody to reality. The mind boggles...
jboy 14y ago
I realise I'm ignoring about two levels of irony here, but "Wear something people want." would actually be a great front for an Official HN T. Inside enough that you need to know about YC to recognize that slogan, but general enough that just about any HN regular should get it. (To anyone else, it would simply seem like an intentionally abstract or unintentionally opaque statement, almost like Engrish.) Plus, that sequence of 4 words is very Google-able, for anyone curious enough to want to know more...
obituary_latte 14y ago
Aww you were so close... *Y Cottonator
nextstep 14y ago

jedberg 14y ago

This is how we felt every time we announced a new reddit feature on reddit. :)

hakaaaaak 14y ago

You're a good guy, Paul. And I agree that things get too cynical and too negative. Please continue to foster an environment that is positive and provide a good example, but if people feel like they are being manipulated, they are going to get pissed off. I used to get more pissed off than I do now, but I still get upset. I wish I didn't. I wish that everyone could live in peace and work together. Maybe if HN we're self-policing via ability to flag comments and posts where enough flags means that it shows as username only with no post title/comment show unless "show" is clicked, no downvoting (a flagged and hidden post or comment could rank at the top), and without the user banning/ghosting stuff...