10 ms·

I kind of wish this were the top comment. It would be humorously appropriate if the top comment on the thread about the official HN t-shirt were the traditional

by pg 14y ago

I kind of wish this were the top comment. It would be humorously appropriate if the top comment on the thread about the official HN t-shirt were the traditional nitpicking/point-missing type that is so commonly the top comment when people launch new technology here.

nicholassmith 14y ago
I'm sure after people see this it'll be voted into the stratosphere.
shill 14y ago
I read HN nitpicking posts in the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons. "Why are you using American Apparel for a multi-threaded shirt and not Erlang?"
- kreek 14y ago
  Too funny, and I agree HN can be a bit predictable at times.
- Aloha 14y ago
  I dont think its nitpicking I would never recognize it unless I also owned the shirt, and knew what it was.
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    I agree. So I made an alternative shirt. This one has no logo either, but it should be more recognizable: http://teespring.com/althntees http://teespring.com/althntees (It even has a crude joke, there's 'More' below the waist)
lionhearted 14y ago
Does that sort of thing bug you on some level Paul? I always had you mentally as pretty stoically philosophically detached from that sort of thing. But I've seen a couple of your comments where you seem genuinely bothered when people are catty or mean to others you care about. Would love to hear your take on how you mentally approach that sort of thing in general.
- pg 14y ago
  Complicated question. Dismissive comments about new things bother me partly because there's an asymmetry that seems unfair. It's so risky to create something new, and so easy to dismiss it. At their worst, the people making such comments are like schoolyard bullies picking on someone who tries to do something different. This particular case is very mild-- more confused than dismissive really. It just struck me as funny to see it get upvoted so much. The upvoting often bothers me more than the comments. There are often individual stupid and/or mean comments languishing down on HN threads. They seem pretty harmless as long as no one upvotes them, like cranks shouting on streetcorners. But when large numbers of people upvote such comments, you start to have a mob. And to see a mob persecuting someone who tries to do something new is much worse than seeing an individual bully do it. There are still a lot of things to be figured out about forums. I predict the world will evolve techniques and customs to protect against this sort of thing, and look back on our era with pity and horror because we didn't have them. But it will probably take a while. I know how hard the problem is, because this is the aspect of HN I most want to improve and spend most time thinking about, and I rarely make progress.
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    I think it was valid critique. (Something I am sure you give the companies you fund.) It's not always easy to provide critique without knocking the cause - But I understood that's how jug6ernaut meant it. If I were to buy a tshirt for HN, which I might possibly do - I'd want it to show off a message rather than it looking like it could be for anything. This doesn't feel personal to the brand to me – I could buy this anywhere for a number of reasons. And of all your description of what you want the community to be - do you want it full of snark like your response? Your response was far more 'schoolyard bullying.' We're adults here, if we can't take critique without crying foul - the internet isn't for us. (And this is not me attacking, or having a go.)
    - davidw 14y ago
      > I think it was valid critique. (Something I am sure you give the companies you fund.) It's not always easy to provide critique without knocking the cause I always think about saying it to someone as I talk to them.
kintamanimatt 14y ago
Just this once you can make it so! Edit the score in the REPL ;-) Do it live!
- nvr219 14y ago
  Site goes down for another 6 hours.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
10dpd 14y ago
But Paul, your comment is the top comment :)
commanda 14y ago
I think that comment should actually be printed on the backs of the shirts.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  I'd actually buy that... I cannot decide if that makes me sad or you a genius.
cperciva 14y ago
I mean no offense, and I realize that this is your site; but I really think jug6ernaut's comment added far more value than your response. I don't think jug6ernaut missed the point whatsoever, and I wouldn't characterize him as nit-picking either: The question of who is expected to understand the t-shirt and what its point is (as compared to an unbranded t-shirt) are perfectly reasonable. Personally I see nothing wrong with t-shirts which can only be understood by an "in" group, but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with asking if that was the intention. Your reply, on the other hand, strikes me as exactly the sort of knee-jerk defensiveness which often makes me wish that submitters couldn't comment on their own posts: Not only did you fail to answer the question, but you implied that jug6ernaut was being unreasonable to even ask it. It's your site and you're entitled to encourage and discourage whichever types of posts you want -- but I think if your desire is to have a site where people engage in meaningful discussion, you made a poor choice here.
- andrewguenther 14y ago
  pg isn't saying that the comment misses the point, he is saying that the comment is saying that the post is missing the point. He wasn't saying the original comment was unreasonable at all. The original comment is the exact kind of thing you would see as top comment on this kind of post, and that isn't a bad thing.
  - rednukleus 14y ago
    When I first read pg's comment I interpreted it the same way as cperciva. But after reading your comment, I'm not sure any more.
    - fakeer 14y ago
      Please read pg's next comment(above) and you might be sure again. I think he meant what cperciva interpreted. Here - "I want HN to be a site where people engage in meaningful discussion that I try to discourage people from upvoting the first dismissive comment they come across"
kfury 14y ago
Perhaps a t-shirt that says "If you can't downvote, upvote!"
jrwoodruff 14y ago
Honestly was not going to buy one of these, until I read this thread. Possibly the most(unintentionally) funny thing I've ever read on HN. And now I'm the proud new owner of shirt #694 (or so).
evo_9 14y ago
How about a design contest going forward? Aka, maybe every 3 months or so have people post their designs, users vote and #1 gets used for that 'run' of t-shirts. You could even tie the contests schedule to the Y class schedule so each class can sport it's own unique design... and also generating more awareness of another application cycle opening soon. The shirts would remain open to the public however (perhaps a unique color given to only Y accepted users). I'd also add a Hoodie to the choice.
georgeorwell 14y ago
What is the point that is being missed? I thought the design was pretentious minimalism. It's minimal for the sake of it, not minimal because it's distilling the essence of something. The essence of HN is not the orange and grey colors. It's really hard to connect the shirt to HN when I look at it. The essence of HN to me is karma, usernames, YC, up/downvotes, programming, America, internet companies, drama, PG love / hate. Just printing something like "100 points" on the grey background would have made it much more wearable. Also, if what you want is an appropriately critical, non-cynical community, you need to embody those qualities yourself. There's not much lower you can go than taking passive aggressive swipes at random posters. If you're the leader of a community, and you don't like the community, it's your responsibility to do something about it. Here's one idea: an official recommendation from you of upvotes for thoughtful replies (even in the case of disagreement), and downvotes for replies that don't add to the conversation.
- lttlrck 14y ago
  Quite. I would have preferred this across the chest. georgeorwell 20 minutes ago | link | parent | flag
  - georgeorwell 14y ago
    Awww shucks :) Well, I'd be happy to be the anonymous poster boy for all y'all.
- dntrkv 14y ago
  Although I am not to crazy about this design, I am happy that there isn't any text on it. Personally, I would never wear a shirt that has any text or anything I would have to explain to anyone, especially if it's from the internet. My ideal shirt would be the warm grey background with an orange colored bar going around the chest area. Seeing as how much time most of us spend on HN, those two colors should be enough for your brain to trigger a relation from the shirt to HN.
adnam 14y ago
To be honest, it's not a very nice t-shirt.
FreshCode 14y ago
Hey pg, I flagged your reply (can't downvote yet) because I really tried to like the design, but ended up questioning it - trying to understand it, without dismissal, just as jug6ernaut expressed it. Your comment on the other hand, dismissed this feeling outright while adding no value to my understanding or knowledge of design.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

by pg 14y ago

nicholassmith 14y ago

I'm sure after people see this it'll be voted into the stratosphere.

shill 14y ago

I read HN nitpicking posts in the voice of Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons. "Why are you using American Apparel for a multi-threaded shirt and not Erlang?"

kreek 14y ago
Too funny, and I agree HN can be a bit predictable at times.
Aloha 14y ago
I dont think its nitpicking I would never recognize it unless I also owned the shirt, and knew what it was.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  I agree. So I made an alternative shirt. This one has no logo either, but it should be more recognizable: http://teespring.com/althntees http://teespring.com/althntees (It even has a crude joke, there's 'More' below the waist)

lionhearted 14y ago

Does that sort of thing bug you on some level Paul? I always had you mentally as pretty stoically philosophically detached from that sort of thing. But I've seen a couple of your comments where you seem genuinely bothered when people are catty or mean to others you care about. Would love to hear your take on how you mentally approach that sort of thing in general.

pg 14y ago
Complicated question. Dismissive comments about new things bother me partly because there's an asymmetry that seems unfair. It's so risky to create something new, and so easy to dismiss it. At their worst, the people making such comments are like schoolyard bullies picking on someone who tries to do something different. This particular case is very mild-- more confused than dismissive really. It just struck me as funny to see it get upvoted so much. The upvoting often bothers me more than the comments. There are often individual stupid and/or mean comments languishing down on HN threads. They seem pretty harmless as long as no one upvotes them, like cranks shouting on streetcorners. But when large numbers of people upvote such comments, you start to have a mob. And to see a mob persecuting someone who tries to do something new is much worse than seeing an individual bully do it. There are still a lot of things to be figured out about forums. I predict the world will evolve techniques and customs to protect against this sort of thing, and look back on our era with pity and horror because we didn't have them. But it will probably take a while. I know how hard the problem is, because this is the aspect of HN I most want to improve and spend most time thinking about, and I rarely make progress.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  I think it was valid critique. (Something I am sure you give the companies you fund.) It's not always easy to provide critique without knocking the cause - But I understood that's how jug6ernaut meant it. If I were to buy a tshirt for HN, which I might possibly do - I'd want it to show off a message rather than it looking like it could be for anything. This doesn't feel personal to the brand to me – I could buy this anywhere for a number of reasons. And of all your description of what you want the community to be - do you want it full of snark like your response? Your response was far more 'schoolyard bullying.' We're adults here, if we can't take critique without crying foul - the internet isn't for us. (And this is not me attacking, or having a go.)
  - davidw 14y ago
    > I think it was valid critique. (Something I am sure you give the companies you fund.) It's not always easy to provide critique without knocking the cause I always think about saying it to someone as I talk to them.

kintamanimatt 14y ago

Just this once you can make it so! Edit the score in the REPL ;-) Do it live!

nvr219 14y ago
Site goes down for another 6 hours.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

10dpd 14y ago

But Paul, your comment is the top comment :)

commanda 14y ago

I think that comment should actually be printed on the backs of the shirts.

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
I'd actually buy that... I cannot decide if that makes me sad or you a genius.

cperciva 14y ago

I mean no offense, and I realize that this is your site; but I really think jug6ernaut's comment added far more value than your response. I don't think jug6ernaut missed the point whatsoever, and I wouldn't characterize him as nit-picking either: The question of who is expected to understand the t-shirt and what its point is (as compared to an unbranded t-shirt) are perfectly reasonable. Personally I see nothing wrong with t-shirts which can only be understood by an "in" group, but that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with asking if that was the intention. Your reply, on the other hand, strikes me as exactly the sort of knee-jerk defensiveness which often makes me wish that submitters couldn't comment on their own posts: Not only did you fail to answer the question, but you implied that jug6ernaut was being unreasonable to even ask it. It's your site and you're entitled to encourage and discourage whichever types of posts you want -- but I think if your desire is to have a site where people engage in meaningful discussion, you made a poor choice here.

andrewguenther 14y ago
pg isn't saying that the comment misses the point, he is saying that the comment is saying that the post is missing the point. He wasn't saying the original comment was unreasonable at all. The original comment is the exact kind of thing you would see as top comment on this kind of post, and that isn't a bad thing.
- rednukleus 14y ago
  When I first read pg's comment I interpreted it the same way as cperciva. But after reading your comment, I'm not sure any more.
  - fakeer 14y ago
    Please read pg's next comment(above) and you might be sure again. I think he meant what cperciva interpreted. Here - "I want HN to be a site where people engage in meaningful discussion that I try to discourage people from upvoting the first dismissive comment they come across"

kfury 14y ago

Perhaps a t-shirt that says "If you can't downvote, upvote!"

jrwoodruff 14y ago

Honestly was not going to buy one of these, until I read this thread. Possibly the most(unintentionally) funny thing I've ever read on HN. And now I'm the proud new owner of shirt #694 (or so).

evo_9 14y ago

How about a design contest going forward? Aka, maybe every 3 months or so have people post their designs, users vote and #1 gets used for that 'run' of t-shirts. You could even tie the contests schedule to the Y class schedule so each class can sport it's own unique design... and also generating more awareness of another application cycle opening soon. The shirts would remain open to the public however (perhaps a unique color given to only Y accepted users). I'd also add a Hoodie to the choice.

georgeorwell 14y ago

What is the point that is being missed? I thought the design was pretentious minimalism. It's minimal for the sake of it, not minimal because it's distilling the essence of something. The essence of HN is not the orange and grey colors. It's really hard to connect the shirt to HN when I look at it. The essence of HN to me is karma, usernames, YC, up/downvotes, programming, America, internet companies, drama, PG love / hate. Just printing something like "100 points" on the grey background would have made it much more wearable. Also, if what you want is an appropriately critical, non-cynical community, you need to embody those qualities yourself. There's not much lower you can go than taking passive aggressive swipes at random posters. If you're the leader of a community, and you don't like the community, it's your responsibility to do something about it. Here's one idea: an official recommendation from you of upvotes for thoughtful replies (even in the case of disagreement), and downvotes for replies that don't add to the conversation.

lttlrck 14y ago
Quite. I would have preferred this across the chest. georgeorwell 20 minutes ago | link | parent | flag
- georgeorwell 14y ago
  Awww shucks :) Well, I'd be happy to be the anonymous poster boy for all y'all.
dntrkv 14y ago
Although I am not to crazy about this design, I am happy that there isn't any text on it. Personally, I would never wear a shirt that has any text or anything I would have to explain to anyone, especially if it's from the internet. My ideal shirt would be the warm grey background with an orange colored bar going around the chest area. Seeing as how much time most of us spend on HN, those two colors should be enough for your brain to trigger a relation from the shirt to HN.

adnam 14y ago

To be honest, it's not a very nice t-shirt.

FreshCode 14y ago

Hey pg, I flagged your reply (can't downvote yet) because I really tried to like the design, but ended up questioning it - trying to understand it, without dismissal, just as jug6ernaut expressed it. Your comment on the other hand, dismissed this feeling outright while adding no value to my understanding or knowledge of design.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]