7 ms·

I've seen these before. There are several companies working on similar products (and things like HUDs you can get off of eBay which show you OBD-II information)

I've seen these before. There are several companies working on similar products (and things like HUDs you can get off of eBay which show you OBD-II information). The main problem with these (all of them!) is that the OBD II was never designed to be used like this. It will run the device 24/7 even when the car is turned off. So it will run down your battery in a similar way to leaving the cabin light on would do... Nothing dramatic but if you're a "city driver" (i.e. no high-speed driving to recharge your battery) then you could get yourself into a situation where you need to be jump-started. So as I said, great concept, however until the OBD-II port is "fixed" so it can be switched on and off I wouldn't get one for my car. Too high a chance that I wouldn't use my car for a weekend and then find it wouldn't start on Monday.

Wintamute 14y ago
Can't the dongle just kill its own connection to the OBDII port? i.e. appear inert to the car's hardware as if nothing is plugged in?
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  It could, but keep in mind many OBD-II ports are out of reach. The one shown in the marketing is real, but many are located on the passenger side or a lot deeper on the driver's side. OBD-II might be a standard, but as I said it was designed to be used while the car is in a garage, never while it is being driven. So there is no "standard" for manufacturers to position it.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    I think what he meant was, can't the device shut itself off in software to appear as though it is unplugged. Not having the user unplug it himself.
    - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
      Oh I see what you mean. I bet it could. But how would it ever turn its self back on? I mean if it is receiving OBD-II information then it knows when the car is running, but if it isn't (which it wouldn't be if it is "off") then it couldn't know to switch its self on. Kind of a chick/egg problem.
      - learc83 14y ago
        They could put it in a low power sleep mode, and wake up once ever x seconds to check if the engine is on. You could run something like this for months/years on a car battery.
        niggler 14y ago
        Then you have a tradeoff: if you don't wake up frequently enough, you could conceivably drive for a good distance before noticing.
        learc83 14y ago
        Something like every 5 to 10 seconds would work fine. The point is this is a solved problem for embedded hardware. The company rep said in a previous reply that it consumes < 1 mA when the ignition is off, that's good enough.
      - ibrahima 14y ago
        If the device has its own battery power, it could probably use a transistor to just disconnect from the battery voltage completely and go into a low power mode where it just checks for ODB2 information periodically, or even just turns itself on when your phone is in range.
      - VLM 14y ago
        "Kind of a chick/egg problem." The phrase you need to google for is "battery isolator". Unfortunately most are rated at like 40 amps for RVs and you want a 40 milliamp one. Many ham radio guys know all about little boxes that connect when the voltage rises above 13.7 volts and disconnect when the voltage applied drops below 13 volts or so. Traditionally you don't use a microprocessor for this, its a beefy FET and two resistors in a voltage divider and not much else. That can be kinda drifty and imprecise depending on resistor and FET tolerance. Another way is the car squirts ODB-II "stuff" at the port when its on, so little more than a diode/cap/FET combined properly will more or less work. The strangest way I ever saw relied on what amounts to "hearing" alternator whine over the DC bus. If the alternator isn't spinning while the engine's running, you've got issues. Any source of KHz range noise would activate them, including unfortunately high powered CB radios.
  - ctz 14y ago
    For cars sold in the EU, the position of the ODB-II port is mandated.
    - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
      Do you have a source for that? Because from experience (being an EU driver) most cars I've dealt with have the port in a different location. Some as wonderful as being literally right in the centre console, to being as horrible as under a mat in the passenger side.
      - buro9 14y ago
        I don't have a source, but I was also advised a couple of years ago that it is mandated to be under the dashboard on the driver side.
        mturmon 14y ago
        According to http://www.obdii.com/connector.html http://www.obdii.com/connector.html : Where is the connector located? The connector must be located within three feet of the driver and must not require any tools to be revealed. Look under the dash and behind ashtrays.
  - VLM 14y ago
    "never while it is being driven." One reason to own a scan tool is to debug anti-lock brake sensors by driving around and noticing which wheel always reports zero... then replace that one sensor. This is far superior to random shotgun troubleshooting. Also while I had a thermostat problem I drove around quite awhile with my scan tool watching the thermostat misregulate my cooling system which is what led to failed readiness indicators because the engine never warmed up all the way only 99% of the way, etc etc. ODB-II is very old, like a college freshman, whereas this is a new iphone app. The equivalent for android, a program called Torque, is old. There are almost certainly HN posters younger than the standard ODB-II port. I bought a bluetooth ODB-II reader for my android/torque phone probably two years ago? It does apparently everything this new app does. My now antique orange physical scan tool appliance that cost me about $150 is about ten years old and obsolete, although it does still work. It is much tougher construction that my phone, which cost a lot more than $150... One of the nicest Torque features is being able to reconfigure the gauge display. No point in being distracted by the oil pressure gauge when you're driving around if all you care about is a graph of the coolant temp vs time or peak coolant temp or whatever it was.
- tmzt 14y ago
  I wonder how Progressive solved that problem with their OBD II + Qualcomm MSM device.
- suraj 14y ago
  The CAN[1] bus used in OBD is a broadcast protocol. So the dongle can just stop sending messages to appear inert to engine control unit. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_Area_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_Area_Network
thejo 14y ago
We're paranoid about not running your car's battery down. When the ignition is off, we consume less than 1 mA. By itself, the Automatic Link would take 3-4 years to drain even a cheap battery.
- JPKab 14y ago
  I'm glad you replied to this criticism. I'm very excited about your product, and I'm hoping that you are planning on a third party API so folks can build apps for your customers..... maybe that was written somewhere and I missed it??
  - thejo 14y ago
    We'd love to build an API. It's on a long list of things we want to build. The Automatic Link supports OTA updates (through the phone). So, our users can expect improvements. In fact, we think of ourselves as a software company. We built a hardware device because that was the only way we could achieve the user experience we wanted to deliver.
- Dwolb 14y ago
  That's a good number for IOD (ignition off draw). Radios, excluding screen aim to be sub-mA range. Most other electronic components are sub-100uA
- raverbashing 14y ago
  I think it's better to break this down, because this myth of 'running out of battery' is really exaggerated Let's say your average battery has 40AH. That means it can provide 1A for 40h (or better, the product time(h) x current(A) = 40 for a charged battery) @ 12v If your lamps consume 24W (I'm guessing), that's 2A, it means it would go from fully charget to nothing in 20h. But of course, your battery is usually not 100% and you need a certain battery capacity to start the engine. Even if the consumption of this device is 1W while idle (which is really an exaggerated value), the device uses around 0.084A and the battery would take 480h to go from 100% to 0% (or about 20 days) My guess is that an unpowered car uses more than that by itself, so this dongle is not an issue, unless you're leaving it unattended, you can unplug it but will probably run out of battery nonetheless.
Adaptive 14y ago
Drop an amp meter between the ground cable and your battery's negative terminal (after disconnecting that connection, of course), and you'll probably see and existing, full time current draw (while the vehicle is off and parked) in any modern vehicle well above what an odb dongle will use.
- woodchuck64 14y ago
  From this 2005? Toyota manual, 20mA average or less, up to 50mA is considered acceptable: http://home.4x4wire.com/deddleman/photos/elec_parasitic_load.jpg http://home.4x4wire.com/deddleman/photos/elec_parasitic_load...
ibrahima 14y ago
Oh really, I didn't realize this was the case. I have a cheap ODB2 reader and I use Torque to estimate my gas mileage, and I just leave it plugged in but in the settings it has an option to remind you to unplug it but I didn't know why. Now I know. I have to say though that I've left it plugged in for a good few months or so and haven't had any problems.

Wintamute 14y ago

Can't the dongle just kill its own connection to the OBDII port? i.e. appear inert to the car's hardware as if nothing is plugged in?

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
It could, but keep in mind many OBD-II ports are out of reach. The one shown in the marketing is real, but many are located on the passenger side or a lot deeper on the driver's side. OBD-II might be a standard, but as I said it was designed to be used while the car is in a garage, never while it is being driven. So there is no "standard" for manufacturers to position it.
- freehunter 14y ago
  I think what he meant was, can't the device shut itself off in software to appear as though it is unplugged. Not having the user unplug it himself.
  - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
    Oh I see what you mean. I bet it could. But how would it ever turn its self back on? I mean if it is receiving OBD-II information then it knows when the car is running, but if it isn't (which it wouldn't be if it is "off") then it couldn't know to switch its self on. Kind of a chick/egg problem.
    - learc83 14y ago
      They could put it in a low power sleep mode, and wake up once ever x seconds to check if the engine is on. You could run something like this for months/years on a car battery.
      - niggler 14y ago
        Then you have a tradeoff: if you don't wake up frequently enough, you could conceivably drive for a good distance before noticing.
        learc83 14y ago
        Something like every 5 to 10 seconds would work fine. The point is this is a solved problem for embedded hardware. The company rep said in a previous reply that it consumes < 1 mA when the ignition is off, that's good enough.
    - ibrahima 14y ago
      If the device has its own battery power, it could probably use a transistor to just disconnect from the battery voltage completely and go into a low power mode where it just checks for ODB2 information periodically, or even just turns itself on when your phone is in range.
    - VLM 14y ago
      "Kind of a chick/egg problem." The phrase you need to google for is "battery isolator". Unfortunately most are rated at like 40 amps for RVs and you want a 40 milliamp one. Many ham radio guys know all about little boxes that connect when the voltage rises above 13.7 volts and disconnect when the voltage applied drops below 13 volts or so. Traditionally you don't use a microprocessor for this, its a beefy FET and two resistors in a voltage divider and not much else. That can be kinda drifty and imprecise depending on resistor and FET tolerance. Another way is the car squirts ODB-II "stuff" at the port when its on, so little more than a diode/cap/FET combined properly will more or less work. The strangest way I ever saw relied on what amounts to "hearing" alternator whine over the DC bus. If the alternator isn't spinning while the engine's running, you've got issues. Any source of KHz range noise would activate them, including unfortunately high powered CB radios.
- ctz 14y ago
  For cars sold in the EU, the position of the ODB-II port is mandated.
  - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
    Do you have a source for that? Because from experience (being an EU driver) most cars I've dealt with have the port in a different location. Some as wonderful as being literally right in the centre console, to being as horrible as under a mat in the passenger side.
    - buro9 14y ago
      I don't have a source, but I was also advised a couple of years ago that it is mandated to be under the dashboard on the driver side.
      - mturmon 14y ago
        According to http://www.obdii.com/connector.html http://www.obdii.com/connector.html : Where is the connector located? The connector must be located within three feet of the driver and must not require any tools to be revealed. Look under the dash and behind ashtrays.
- VLM 14y ago
  "never while it is being driven." One reason to own a scan tool is to debug anti-lock brake sensors by driving around and noticing which wheel always reports zero... then replace that one sensor. This is far superior to random shotgun troubleshooting. Also while I had a thermostat problem I drove around quite awhile with my scan tool watching the thermostat misregulate my cooling system which is what led to failed readiness indicators because the engine never warmed up all the way only 99% of the way, etc etc. ODB-II is very old, like a college freshman, whereas this is a new iphone app. The equivalent for android, a program called Torque, is old. There are almost certainly HN posters younger than the standard ODB-II port. I bought a bluetooth ODB-II reader for my android/torque phone probably two years ago? It does apparently everything this new app does. My now antique orange physical scan tool appliance that cost me about $150 is about ten years old and obsolete, although it does still work. It is much tougher construction that my phone, which cost a lot more than $150... One of the nicest Torque features is being able to reconfigure the gauge display. No point in being distracted by the oil pressure gauge when you're driving around if all you care about is a graph of the coolant temp vs time or peak coolant temp or whatever it was.
tmzt 14y ago
I wonder how Progressive solved that problem with their OBD II + Qualcomm MSM device.
suraj 14y ago
The CAN[1] bus used in OBD is a broadcast protocol. So the dongle can just stop sending messages to appear inert to engine control unit. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_Area_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_Area_Network

thejo 14y ago

We're paranoid about not running your car's battery down. When the ignition is off, we consume less than 1 mA. By itself, the Automatic Link would take 3-4 years to drain even a cheap battery.

JPKab 14y ago
I'm glad you replied to this criticism. I'm very excited about your product, and I'm hoping that you are planning on a third party API so folks can build apps for your customers..... maybe that was written somewhere and I missed it??
- thejo 14y ago
  We'd love to build an API. It's on a long list of things we want to build. The Automatic Link supports OTA updates (through the phone). So, our users can expect improvements. In fact, we think of ourselves as a software company. We built a hardware device because that was the only way we could achieve the user experience we wanted to deliver.
Dwolb 14y ago
That's a good number for IOD (ignition off draw). Radios, excluding screen aim to be sub-mA range. Most other electronic components are sub-100uA
raverbashing 14y ago
I think it's better to break this down, because this myth of 'running out of battery' is really exaggerated Let's say your average battery has 40AH. That means it can provide 1A for 40h (or better, the product time(h) x current(A) = 40 for a charged battery) @ 12v If your lamps consume 24W (I'm guessing), that's 2A, it means it would go from fully charget to nothing in 20h. But of course, your battery is usually not 100% and you need a certain battery capacity to start the engine. Even if the consumption of this device is 1W while idle (which is really an exaggerated value), the device uses around 0.084A and the battery would take 480h to go from 100% to 0% (or about 20 days) My guess is that an unpowered car uses more than that by itself, so this dongle is not an issue, unless you're leaving it unattended, you can unplug it but will probably run out of battery nonetheless.

Adaptive 14y ago

Drop an amp meter between the ground cable and your battery's negative terminal (after disconnecting that connection, of course), and you'll probably see and existing, full time current draw (while the vehicle is off and parked) in any modern vehicle well above what an odb dongle will use.

woodchuck64 14y ago
From this 2005? Toyota manual, 20mA average or less, up to 50mA is considered acceptable: http://home.4x4wire.com/deddleman/photos/elec_parasitic_load.jpg http://home.4x4wire.com/deddleman/photos/elec_parasitic_load...

ibrahima 14y ago

Oh really, I didn't realize this was the case. I have a cheap ODB2 reader and I use Torque to estimate my gas mileage, and I just leave it plugged in but in the settings it has an option to remind you to unplug it but I didn't know why. Now I know. I have to say though that I've left it plugged in for a good few months or so and haven't had any problems.