4 ms·

As a philosophy major you realize that not enough people are trained in logic for you to have a reasonable, well-thought out and coherent debate about a topic.

As a philosophy major you realize that not enough people are trained in logic for you to have a reasonable, well-thought out and coherent debate about a topic. Arguments with people who believe something dogmatically end up going in circles and being frustrating for both sides, with neither one ending up making clear progress. At the same time, it's made me question whether "logic" is really something so natural and part of the world itself, if you have to be trained for years in order to understand and argue by its rules..

rokhayakebe 14y ago
I feel one could have a great discussion about every single line of your comment. Apparently up to around 200 years ago, or possibly less than that, you learned grammar, rhetoric, and logic in secondary school. Blame the school system for that, Mortimer Adler has a great book on that: "How to read." Debate is the wrong word, Dialectic is the correct one. I think, the usage of the former instead of the second has shaped western thinking for the past few hundred years, and unfortunately the world is never going to recover from that. Imagine if every discussion started with "let us attempt to discover the truth," as opposed to "let us each try to convince the other of our individual truths." The funny thing about dogmatic belief, is that even scientist are dogmatic, even philosophers themselves are, in a sense dogmatic because, well, many believe it all comes down to reasoning. For example you sound convinced in order to have a a coherent debate, one must be trained in logic. Is that a fact? Not to say I disagree, I am just pointing we may all be suffering from the same illness. Is logic natural and part of the world itself, if you must be trained...? That's tough and interesting one. I'll think about this in my free time. It must depend on what you believe. Are only the things that consist of matter natural? Is logic something that hails from matter? I don't know, Lucretius would probably say yes. But you cannot deny its existence since we are speaking of it, so it must be part of this world. Then again, are there things which are part of this world but not natural? I have no freaking clue man. But interesting anyways. However note that logic has existed for years and possibly started before humans with the very first deduction a living entity made. If you ever reasoned then it must be logic, even if faulty reasoning. I think the difference is that some think logic started with Plato because he was the first (at least according to Western History) to record it. But obviously logic was there before, otherwise how would he have noticed it in Socrates.

rokhayakebe 14y ago

I feel one could have a great discussion about every single line of your comment. Apparently up to around 200 years ago, or possibly less than that, you learned grammar, rhetoric, and logic in secondary school. Blame the school system for that, Mortimer Adler has a great book on that: "How to read." Debate is the wrong word, Dialectic is the correct one. I think, the usage of the former instead of the second has shaped western thinking for the past few hundred years, and unfortunately the world is never going to recover from that. Imagine if every discussion started with "let us attempt to discover the truth," as opposed to "let us each try to convince the other of our individual truths." The funny thing about dogmatic belief, is that even scientist are dogmatic, even philosophers themselves are, in a sense dogmatic because, well, many believe it all comes down to reasoning. For example you sound convinced in order to have a a coherent debate, one must be trained in logic. Is that a fact? Not to say I disagree, I am just pointing we may all be suffering from the same illness. Is logic natural and part of the world itself, if you must be trained...? That's tough and interesting one. I'll think about this in my free time. It must depend on what you believe. Are only the things that consist of matter natural? Is logic something that hails from matter? I don't know, Lucretius would probably say yes. But you cannot deny its existence since we are speaking of it, so it must be part of this world. Then again, are there things which are part of this world but not natural? I have no freaking clue man. But interesting anyways. However note that logic has existed for years and possibly started before humans with the very first deduction a living entity made. If you ever reasoned then it must be logic, even if faulty reasoning. I think the difference is that some think logic started with Plato because he was the first (at least according to Western History) to record it. But obviously logic was there before, otherwise how would he have noticed it in Socrates.