4 ms·

I live in Slovenia. In a village. My living expenses are less than $1500 per month (a family of 5), all bills included (phone, internet, heating, food, water an

by tzaman 14y ago

I live in Slovenia. In a village. My living expenses are less than $1500 per month (a family of 5), all bills included (phone, internet, heating, food, water and electricity and child care). While I do have a dream of coming to Silicon Valley some day (I guess it's every hacker's dream destination), it's just not cost effective for me at this moment. In english: I can't afford it. So the question is, why people even bother living in one of the most expensive regions in the US/World? What's wrong with living in some remote village, as long as basic life necessities are available? I know people (most of them senior folks) that live in our capital (Ljubljana), and whine about not having money while owning a house in a city center that's worth more that they could spend in a lifetime should they choose to live in an inexpensive countryside.

kiba 14y ago
Because the city have more of everything you want. The reason why everything cost more is a demand and supply issue.
mbesto 14y ago
Simple. There are certain characteristics to business that require real in person relationships. In fact many of the businesses that exist that you never hear of on HN are exactly like like this. SV is great for 3 things: 1. Insane amount of capital to growth (and to exit big) 2. Access to $120k/yr+ salaried Stanford/MIT grads (among others) 3. Tech-savvy early evangelists If your company doesn't need these things to survive, stay far away from SV. It's not worth it. There are however other areas that possibly have all 3, but not to the extent of SV. The ones I've personally identified are Austin (US), London (UK), Stockholm (SE), and Berlin (DE). What you get in return is cheaper cost of living (London and Stockholm, you just need to live further outside the city) and therefore cheaper wages.
- ahoyhere 14y ago
  I take issue with #2. Lots of people don't want to live in SF/SV… especially given the way the cost of living eats up those "piddling" $120k/yr salaries. Living elsewhere and working on your ability to hire/manage a remote team would be a way to serve an underserved market -- great tech talent that values community & family ties, and economical use of their money.
  - mbesto 14y ago
    My point is that it reduces risk. Can you find the same quality dev from SV for $120k/yr and Malaysia for $15k/yr? Absolutely. But the chances of that happening from SV are much higher, so you pay for that comfort. It also doesn't negate the fact that terrible developers do in fact live in both locations. Personally, I believe in finding the best team wherever they are in the world. But, unfortunately that's not an easy thing to do. ps- just saw you are the creator of http://everytimezone.com/ http://everytimezone.com/ I have it bookmarked and constantly use it. Thanks for developing!
    - ahoyhere 14y ago
      I don't think it really does reduce risk. I've worked with more than a few terrible developers who have exemplary-looking college and startup pedigrees. One of the worst developers I ever worked with graduated from a top school and left Y! (back when they were neat) to join my (very much former) employer. This guy thought the height of programming was using PHP's raise error function as GOTO. Gag. And I never said a thing about Malaysia. I am highly skeptical about wage/currency arbitrage. I'm talking about the smart people who'd prefer to live in their hometowns/states, or with their spouses/mates who need to move for their job, etc., around the US, Canada, and some other Westernized countries. A dirty, crowded, expensive city isn't everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone gets a nerd-on about being surrounded by other "ambitious" 22yos in what is essentially a monoculture. Not a thing on earth could lure me to live in San Francisco, for example. There are a lot of people out there who agree with me, and those people can't be hired for $15k, but they can be hired for $85-120k, and in most cases, if you are savvy about managing, they can produce great work remotely.
      - mbesto 14y ago
        I think we're in full agreement on this one. For example, I'm American living in London, with a graphic designer from Russia living in Liverpool and a developer from Belgium living in Spain. In no way have our backgrounds shaped or reduced my risk of building that team...they are just simply good at what they do, so we work together. I've worked with more than a few terrible developers who have exemplary-looking college and startup pedigrees. My point is that on a macro scale it does reduce risk. Otherwise these ambitious 22 year olds making $120k+ wouldn't exist...
MrMan 14y ago
you have the right idea. it's crazy that the internet of all things is supposed to force people to move to a certain place. SV is behind the times.
- davidw 14y ago
  > you have the right idea. it's crazy that the internet of all things is supposed to force people to move to a certain place. It's complicated though: people are still people, and interact with one another on a personal basis in ways that are higher bandwidth and more nuanced than can be done on line. And with lots of people doing stuff in the same place, the potential for cross-pollination and other random things emerging goes up. This book talks about the issues involved and the economics behind them, at length: The New Geography of Jobs: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008035HQQ/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008035HQQ/?tag=dedasys-20 I found it quite interesting. That said, I did my time in the Bay Area and don't feel like going back.
potatolicious 14y ago
Because cities exist for a reason: it is in many cases necessary to gather similar people together to do business. Import/export businesses are located near major ports for obvious reasons. Textile manufacturers are located near clothiers for obvious reasons. Food wholesalers are located in farm country, etc etc. Technology rarely exists in a void - it is at its most useful when applied to dissimilar fields. See for example Uber, which has applied technology to the field of taxicabs, or AirBnb which has applied technology to the previously pencil-and-paper field of private B&Bs/renting. When you're in a technology business that needs to interface with an established industry, you need to be where they are. Fashion startups in the US want to be in New York, rather than the Valley, for example. We are not even close to the point where the guy teleconferencing in from his country house is on the same footing as the guy who walks through the front door to have coffee.
- tzaman 14y ago
  I think you missed my point. You're right about being the connection point. But that doesn't really mean or do anything for you if you're poor or homeless, does it?
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    Sure, possibly. Moving to a city to be homeless seems like a terrible idea regardless of context - but sacrificing some financial flexibility for your preferred lifestyle (so long as you're not broke) seems sane. You're discounting, once again, the point of connectedness. The senior folks you talk about - how long have they been there? Are all of their friends there? What would they do with themselves if they moved into the countryside - visit friends they don't have? The connectedness of cities goes beyond business. There is a reason why major urban centers are a focal point for subcultures - the more fringe they are the more urban they get. It's the only place where these groups are able to sustain a critical mass to keep existing. For a great many people cities are the only place where they can be themselves.

by tzaman 14y ago

kiba 14y ago

Because the city have more of everything you want. The reason why everything cost more is a demand and supply issue.

mbesto 14y ago

Simple. There are certain characteristics to business that require real in person relationships. In fact many of the businesses that exist that you never hear of on HN are exactly like like this. SV is great for 3 things: 1. Insane amount of capital to growth (and to exit big) 2. Access to $120k/yr+ salaried Stanford/MIT grads (among others) 3. Tech-savvy early evangelists If your company doesn't need these things to survive, stay far away from SV. It's not worth it. There are however other areas that possibly have all 3, but not to the extent of SV. The ones I've personally identified are Austin (US), London (UK), Stockholm (SE), and Berlin (DE). What you get in return is cheaper cost of living (London and Stockholm, you just need to live further outside the city) and therefore cheaper wages.

ahoyhere 14y ago
I take issue with #2. Lots of people don't want to live in SF/SV… especially given the way the cost of living eats up those "piddling" $120k/yr salaries. Living elsewhere and working on your ability to hire/manage a remote team would be a way to serve an underserved market -- great tech talent that values community & family ties, and economical use of their money.
- mbesto 14y ago
  My point is that it reduces risk. Can you find the same quality dev from SV for $120k/yr and Malaysia for $15k/yr? Absolutely. But the chances of that happening from SV are much higher, so you pay for that comfort. It also doesn't negate the fact that terrible developers do in fact live in both locations. Personally, I believe in finding the best team wherever they are in the world. But, unfortunately that's not an easy thing to do. ps- just saw you are the creator of http://everytimezone.com/ http://everytimezone.com/ I have it bookmarked and constantly use it. Thanks for developing!
  - ahoyhere 14y ago
    I don't think it really does reduce risk. I've worked with more than a few terrible developers who have exemplary-looking college and startup pedigrees. One of the worst developers I ever worked with graduated from a top school and left Y! (back when they were neat) to join my (very much former) employer. This guy thought the height of programming was using PHP's raise error function as GOTO. Gag. And I never said a thing about Malaysia. I am highly skeptical about wage/currency arbitrage. I'm talking about the smart people who'd prefer to live in their hometowns/states, or with their spouses/mates who need to move for their job, etc., around the US, Canada, and some other Westernized countries. A dirty, crowded, expensive city isn't everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone gets a nerd-on about being surrounded by other "ambitious" 22yos in what is essentially a monoculture. Not a thing on earth could lure me to live in San Francisco, for example. There are a lot of people out there who agree with me, and those people can't be hired for $15k, but they can be hired for $85-120k, and in most cases, if you are savvy about managing, they can produce great work remotely.
    - mbesto 14y ago
      I think we're in full agreement on this one. For example, I'm American living in London, with a graphic designer from Russia living in Liverpool and a developer from Belgium living in Spain. In no way have our backgrounds shaped or reduced my risk of building that team...they are just simply good at what they do, so we work together. I've worked with more than a few terrible developers who have exemplary-looking college and startup pedigrees. My point is that on a macro scale it does reduce risk. Otherwise these ambitious 22 year olds making $120k+ wouldn't exist...

MrMan 14y ago

you have the right idea. it's crazy that the internet of all things is supposed to force people to move to a certain place. SV is behind the times.

davidw 14y ago
> you have the right idea. it's crazy that the internet of all things is supposed to force people to move to a certain place. It's complicated though: people are still people, and interact with one another on a personal basis in ways that are higher bandwidth and more nuanced than can be done on line. And with lots of people doing stuff in the same place, the potential for cross-pollination and other random things emerging goes up. This book talks about the issues involved and the economics behind them, at length: The New Geography of Jobs: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008035HQQ/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008035HQQ/?tag=dedasys-20 I found it quite interesting. That said, I did my time in the Bay Area and don't feel like going back.

potatolicious 14y ago

Because cities exist for a reason: it is in many cases necessary to gather similar people together to do business. Import/export businesses are located near major ports for obvious reasons. Textile manufacturers are located near clothiers for obvious reasons. Food wholesalers are located in farm country, etc etc. Technology rarely exists in a void - it is at its most useful when applied to dissimilar fields. See for example Uber, which has applied technology to the field of taxicabs, or AirBnb which has applied technology to the previously pencil-and-paper field of private B&Bs/renting. When you're in a technology business that needs to interface with an established industry, you need to be where they are. Fashion startups in the US want to be in New York, rather than the Valley, for example. We are not even close to the point where the guy teleconferencing in from his country house is on the same footing as the guy who walks through the front door to have coffee.

tzaman 14y ago
I think you missed my point. You're right about being the connection point. But that doesn't really mean or do anything for you if you're poor or homeless, does it?
- potatolicious 14y ago
  Sure, possibly. Moving to a city to be homeless seems like a terrible idea regardless of context - but sacrificing some financial flexibility for your preferred lifestyle (so long as you're not broke) seems sane. You're discounting, once again, the point of connectedness. The senior folks you talk about - how long have they been there? Are all of their friends there? What would they do with themselves if they moved into the countryside - visit friends they don't have? The connectedness of cities goes beyond business. There is a reason why major urban centers are a focal point for subcultures - the more fringe they are the more urban they get. It's the only place where these groups are able to sustain a critical mass to keep existing. For a great many people cities are the only place where they can be themselves.