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google "The Paleo Diet", first result http://thepaleodiet.com/ http://thepaleodiet.com/: The Paleo Diet is based upon eating wholesome, contemporary foods from

google "The Paleo Diet", first result http://thepaleodiet.com/ http://thepaleodiet.com/: The Paleo Diet is based upon eating wholesome, contemporary foods from the food groups our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have thrived on during the Paleolithic era, the time period from about 2.6 million years ago to the beginning of the agricultural revolution, about 10,000 years ago. These foods include fresh meats (preferably grass-produced or free-ranging beef, pork, lamb, poultry, and game meat, if you can get it), fish, seafood, fresh fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts, and healthful oils (olive, coconut, avocado, macadamia, walnut and flaxseed). Dairy products, cereal grains, legumes, refined sugars and processed foods were not part of our ancestral menu. The site makes constant references to "the mainstays of Stone Age diets" and advocates a high potassium/sodium ratio because "Stone Age bodies were adapted to this". Another site early in the results: "Cut out all cereal grains and legumes, cut out sugar, eliminate dairy products" which I think covers everything outside of meat, fruit and vegetables. PaleoDiet.com: "Paleo is a simple dietary lifestyle that is based on foods being either in or out. In are the Paleolithic Era foods that we ate prior to agriculture and animal husbandry (meat, fish, shellfish, eggs, tree nuts, vegetables, roots, fruit, berries, mushrooms, etc.). Out are Neolithic Era foods that result from agriculture or animal husbandry (grains, dairy, beans/legumes, potatoes, sugar and fake foods) " If you object to people rebutting this 'straw man', then perhaps you should try and stop people from proposing it. You can't call something a straw man simply because it's not what you personally mean by the word.

brd 14y ago
If you take a very black and white approach to it I'd concede that you are correct and that there is a genuine argument being presented that you should eat like a caveman and that Zuk has a point. However, what you are copying/pasting here is marketing copy. Diets tend to fail because people fail to adhere to them. People fail to adhere to them because they are complicated. These sites are trying to convert visitors by providing a simple, palatable message. When you get past the sales pitch there is real science behind the paleo diet. The paleo diet started out as a hypothesis based on a paleolithic diet but the paleo diet is well supported by modern nutritional concepts and is advocated for those reasons, not simply because a caveman ate it. edit: if the paleo diet were simply based on the premise "a caveman ate it" it would be nothing more than a fad diet that died out in the 70s.
- cromulent 14y ago
  From the 2011 "Updated to include the latest guidelines and research" version of the canonical "The Paleo Diet" by the scientist Loren Courdain who started it all: ==== You'll be following the diet that every single person on the planet ate only 333 generations ago. ... Here are the ground rules: 1. All the lean meats...you can eat 2. All the fruits and non starchy vegetables you can eat 3. No cereals 4. No legumes 5. No dairy products 6. No processed foods ==== It seems like much more than a straw man or marketing copy. http://books.google.fi/books?hl=en&lr=&id=d_lVB6HZJ4YC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=Loren+Cordain&ots=LW9KK9Logo&sig=tJOKdeeHnTanHdDGYdyDLIfkkdI&redir_esc=y http://books.google.fi/books?hl=en&lr=&id=d_lVB6HZJ4... Page 23.
- jacalata 14y ago
  You said the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. This means 'this book is trying to discredit claims about paleo diets that nobody actually makes'. My point is that you are wrong that nobody makes those claims, here are some examples of people using exactly that description. Feel free to argue that it misrepresents the makeup of and the reasoning behind paleo diet, but don't argue they didn't say it. And if you've literally never heard someone arguing that they eat just meat and vegetables because our bodies evolved for it in the Stone Age and haven't had time to learn anything else, I envy you. Here is a fun article about some people who self describe as being 'paleo', for an example of how this 'just marketing copy' is the same as the actual justification for paleo used by many people: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/fashion/10caveman.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/fashion/10caveman.html?pag...
awolf 14y ago
You grabbed a bunch of SEO-juiced search results to represent the entirety of the Paleo movement's stance? google: "straw man fallacy", first result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man: >A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
- jamesaguilar 14y ago
  I can't speak for everyone, but the citations your parent post provided are certainly characteristic of the typical claim I've heard paleo proponents make. There may be a difference between what the average user of the diet believes compared to those who spawned it though.
- jacalata 14y ago
  I have certainly been under the impression that Dr Loren Cordain was one of the biggest scientific names in Paleo, and I believe his books are some of the most popular ones on Paleo, which means that they are the entry to Paleo for many people. If you believe his thoughts are not representative of Paleo, you may want to go find a new name for your diet (and do be careful not to quote his research when explaining it).
miles 14y ago
The idea that grains and legumes cause obesity is absurd. Asians have been living largely on both for thousands of years [1,2] and have enjoyed incredibly low obesity rates [3] until recently. Consuming more calories than you expend is the culprit here, not grains and legumes. If we want to single out some of the leading causes for overconsumption, I'd point to refined sugar, oils (pure fat), junk food, and high fructose corn syrup. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Asia [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_bean#Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_bean#Asia [3] http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-trends/obesity-rates-worldwide/#References http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesit...
- newnewnew 14y ago
  We should also remember that Asians are Asian. A few of the high-profile genes that we know influence diet occur at far different levels in Asian and other populations, such as lactose and alcohol tolerance. To believe that there is one best diet for all mankind we would have to deny human genetic diversity.
- VLM 14y ago
  In a modern american diet is it possible to eat grains without your laundry list of "sugar, oils, junk food, HFCS"? It doesn't matter if you "can" eat grains although they're almost never available in a format that meets the other requirements. Don't try to tell me every american, especially fat ones, cracks open a can of creamed corn kernels every meal for a vegetable. In a modern fat american diet, grains = wonder bread (or equiv) made out of sugar, oil, and HFCS, doritos made out of oil aka junk food. Pizza with the wheat and soy flour crust baked on oil with a super sugary sauce covered in oily meat and dairy cheese. What, if anything, do americans eat made out of grain that isn't a junk food? Bread is junk food. Donuts are junk food. Pretty much everything from the bakery is junk food. Breakfast cereal is junk food. Granola bars are junk food. Oatmeal (my son needs special GF uncontaminated oatmeal..) is just a delivery vehicle for 25% by weight brown sugar, butter, and maple syrup, so thats junk food too. Anything fried, baked, and heavily seasoned and sealed into a shelf stable bag contains wheat and/or soy and is junk food. Is there any junk food out there made without dairy, soy protein extract, or wheat? I have extensively researched this and the answer is basically "no". My son can eat a couple kinds of corn chip and some unflavored potato chips, thats about it for his "typical american diet" junk food. Almost anything "heat and eat" from the freezer section of the store is off limits. My son has a medically diagnosed allergy to a protein in wheat. So for about a decade, no wheat (ditto soy and dairy ... so we eat what boils down to medically required paleo diet at home since about 2004, although we don't (probably to our detriment) exclude potatoes, rice, and beans). Coincidentally, exclusion of wheat pretty much excludes all junk food. There's not much he can eat in the category of "junk food" other than some plain potato chips, and specialty expensive therefore rare exotic gluten free junk food. I only get to eat "junk food" while at work, its not like I'm gonna dig into a cake in front of a kid who can't eat it without exploding out both ends... I see it as a happy coincidence. If the FDA mandated all junk food contain blue food coloring, and a diet was proposed that we shouldn't eat stuff made with blue food coloring, it doesn't "really" matter that its not the blue dye making us fat...

brd 14y ago

If you take a very black and white approach to it I'd concede that you are correct and that there is a genuine argument being presented that you should eat like a caveman and that Zuk has a point. However, what you are copying/pasting here is marketing copy. Diets tend to fail because people fail to adhere to them. People fail to adhere to them because they are complicated. These sites are trying to convert visitors by providing a simple, palatable message. When you get past the sales pitch there is real science behind the paleo diet. The paleo diet started out as a hypothesis based on a paleolithic diet but the paleo diet is well supported by modern nutritional concepts and is advocated for those reasons, not simply because a caveman ate it. edit: if the paleo diet were simply based on the premise "a caveman ate it" it would be nothing more than a fad diet that died out in the 70s.

cromulent 14y ago
From the 2011 "Updated to include the latest guidelines and research" version of the canonical "The Paleo Diet" by the scientist Loren Courdain who started it all: ==== You'll be following the diet that every single person on the planet ate only 333 generations ago. ... Here are the ground rules: 1. All the lean meats...you can eat 2. All the fruits and non starchy vegetables you can eat 3. No cereals 4. No legumes 5. No dairy products 6. No processed foods ==== It seems like much more than a straw man or marketing copy. http://books.google.fi/books?hl=en&lr=&id=d_lVB6HZJ4YC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=Loren+Cordain&ots=LW9KK9Logo&sig=tJOKdeeHnTanHdDGYdyDLIfkkdI&redir_esc=y http://books.google.fi/books?hl=en&lr=&id=d_lVB6HZJ4... Page 23.
jacalata 14y ago
You said the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. This means 'this book is trying to discredit claims about paleo diets that nobody actually makes'. My point is that you are wrong that nobody makes those claims, here are some examples of people using exactly that description. Feel free to argue that it misrepresents the makeup of and the reasoning behind paleo diet, but don't argue they didn't say it. And if you've literally never heard someone arguing that they eat just meat and vegetables because our bodies evolved for it in the Stone Age and haven't had time to learn anything else, I envy you. Here is a fun article about some people who self describe as being 'paleo', for an example of how this 'just marketing copy' is the same as the actual justification for paleo used by many people: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/fashion/10caveman.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/fashion/10caveman.html?pag...

awolf 14y ago

You grabbed a bunch of SEO-juiced search results to represent the entirety of the Paleo movement's stance? google: "straw man fallacy", first result http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man: >A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

jamesaguilar 14y ago
I can't speak for everyone, but the citations your parent post provided are certainly characteristic of the typical claim I've heard paleo proponents make. There may be a difference between what the average user of the diet believes compared to those who spawned it though.
jacalata 14y ago
I have certainly been under the impression that Dr Loren Cordain was one of the biggest scientific names in Paleo, and I believe his books are some of the most popular ones on Paleo, which means that they are the entry to Paleo for many people. If you believe his thoughts are not representative of Paleo, you may want to go find a new name for your diet (and do be careful not to quote his research when explaining it).

miles 14y ago

The idea that grains and legumes cause obesity is absurd. Asians have been living largely on both for thousands of years [1,2] and have enjoyed incredibly low obesity rates [3] until recently. Consuming more calories than you expend is the culprit here, not grains and legumes. If we want to single out some of the leading causes for overconsumption, I'd point to refined sugar, oils (pure fat), junk food, and high fructose corn syrup. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Asia [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_bean#Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_bean#Asia [3] http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-trends/obesity-rates-worldwide/#References http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesit...

newnewnew 14y ago
We should also remember that Asians are Asian. A few of the high-profile genes that we know influence diet occur at far different levels in Asian and other populations, such as lactose and alcohol tolerance. To believe that there is one best diet for all mankind we would have to deny human genetic diversity.
VLM 14y ago
In a modern american diet is it possible to eat grains without your laundry list of "sugar, oils, junk food, HFCS"? It doesn't matter if you "can" eat grains although they're almost never available in a format that meets the other requirements. Don't try to tell me every american, especially fat ones, cracks open a can of creamed corn kernels every meal for a vegetable. In a modern fat american diet, grains = wonder bread (or equiv) made out of sugar, oil, and HFCS, doritos made out of oil aka junk food. Pizza with the wheat and soy flour crust baked on oil with a super sugary sauce covered in oily meat and dairy cheese. What, if anything, do americans eat made out of grain that isn't a junk food? Bread is junk food. Donuts are junk food. Pretty much everything from the bakery is junk food. Breakfast cereal is junk food. Granola bars are junk food. Oatmeal (my son needs special GF uncontaminated oatmeal..) is just a delivery vehicle for 25% by weight brown sugar, butter, and maple syrup, so thats junk food too. Anything fried, baked, and heavily seasoned and sealed into a shelf stable bag contains wheat and/or soy and is junk food. Is there any junk food out there made without dairy, soy protein extract, or wheat? I have extensively researched this and the answer is basically "no". My son can eat a couple kinds of corn chip and some unflavored potato chips, thats about it for his "typical american diet" junk food. Almost anything "heat and eat" from the freezer section of the store is off limits. My son has a medically diagnosed allergy to a protein in wheat. So for about a decade, no wheat (ditto soy and dairy ... so we eat what boils down to medically required paleo diet at home since about 2004, although we don't (probably to our detriment) exclude potatoes, rice, and beans). Coincidentally, exclusion of wheat pretty much excludes all junk food. There's not much he can eat in the category of "junk food" other than some plain potato chips, and specialty expensive therefore rare exotic gluten free junk food. I only get to eat "junk food" while at work, its not like I'm gonna dig into a cake in front of a kid who can't eat it without exploding out both ends... I see it as a happy coincidence. If the FDA mandated all junk food contain blue food coloring, and a diet was proposed that we shouldn't eat stuff made with blue food coloring, it doesn't "really" matter that its not the blue dye making us fat...