15 ms·

People that do this are evil.

by satori99 14y ago

chrischen 14y ago
As the article suggests, the people who do this are probably 14 year old boys.
- veb 14y ago
  It's been going on for a loooooong time. Sub7 anyone? I'm sure most of us were once 14, and unsupervised and didn't do anything evil.
  - psionski 14y ago
    wolf3d.exe on a floppy -> "This self-extracting zip archive is corrupted!" :P P.S. Now that I typed the file's name (it was really wolf3d.exe), I suddenly feel old... Not to mention the "floppy" bit :)
- DrJokepu 14y ago
  By the age of 14 you are supposed to have a developed enough sense of morality to understand that this is very bad. I don't think this is an acceptable excuse.
  - kalleboo 14y ago
    One way of learning is by making mistakes
    - satori99 14y ago
      How many slaves, oops, I mean mistakes, do you think it takes to learn that this is a bad thing to do?
    - rayiner 14y ago
      That's just a stupid Americanism.[1] You don't need to do a bunch of wrong things to learn what's wrong. You learn what's right and wrong because your parents tell you what's right and wrong, and society and school socializes you to teach you what's right and wrong. If you get to 14 and need to scare someone like this to learn what's right and wrong, you're either defective or your parents and teachers have failed at their jobs. More likely, you know it's wrong and you just don't care. [1] I'm an American and love America, but we elevate apologizing for bad things kids do (because we don't have the stomach to properly discipline them) to an art form.
      - Nursie 14y ago
        "we elevate apologizing for bad things kids do (because we don't have the stomach to properly discipline them) to an art form." Conversely, the US seems fond of trying kids as adults when they cross some or other threshold of crime. As an outside observer it seems an odd contradiction.
      - solistice 14y ago
        This might be somewhat ranty and unprofessional, but I have to say it You learn what's wrong from your parents, and your teachers, and society. I'd like to disagree with you on that point. Yes, you get ideas passed down to your by others, but if you do not bother to examine them and act blindly on the premise that these things must be right, because others told you, without putting any deliberation into the truth of these moral dictates, then...how to get this across without seeming as angry and ranty as I am? Because things like this viscerally disgust me. My parent taught me they didn't care (or couldn't), my school taught me I was in the wrong place, and my peers taught me that I was scum. And I didn't act on those morals, or I wouldn't be writing this paragraph, nor living, nor breathing. Of course, this didn't last forever. I recovered, and I learned how to deal with people. But what you just said, that I...I was defective for not leaving a place that obviously didn't welcome me, the implication that I should have crossed hades, that's worse than telling me to "go die", because you said it with moral righteousness. Now I know you're talking about 14 year olds that spy on girls, and I don't think that's morally right either, but your explanation of why it isn't, it's just...wrong somehow. Firstof, they're not defective. Don't even say a child is broken. Misunderstood? Maybe. Misled? Maybe. But not broken nor defective nor hopeless. Because when you take a child, filled with expectations and hope, trying to make sense of the things that happen in the world, and you tell them they're broken, you're killing them. Yes, some might recover from it, just as someone shot might survive, but you and I agree that shooting a kid is still a pretty bad thing to do, no matter whether they survive or not, right? So don't do it. Ok, so after I've vented some of my anger, and proably shared way to personal details with everyone on here, back to business. Society is a pretty bad measuring stick for morals. Define the "average morals" to be the reference point, and Schindler becomes the most amoral man in the third reich. You see how this averaging is a pretty bad idea, right? Ok. Then to the disciplining thing. There's a difference between teaching something to your kids, and threatening them to do something. Teaching leads to moral understanding and a moral code. Threats will only teach that might is right, and the only thing holding together morals is violence. I think this worldview does point towards why religious people often ask atheist why they don't think the world will collapse into anarchy without the concept of a hell. Because hell is violence as the foundation of morals. If you want to affect any of those kids, go out and teach them why it's wrong instead of threatening to hit them if they do it again. TL;DR: As a past victim of social ostracism, post makes me angry. Average morals are a bad idea. Disciplining kids will lead to obedience from threat, not to morals. Teaching will. So go teach
  - Confusion 14y ago
    Who are these mythical 14 year old boys that are supposed to have developed 'enough' of a sense of morality? To paraphrase The Virgin Suicides: obviously Dr., you never were a 14 year old boy.
    - DanBC 14y ago
      14 is older than the age of criminal responsibility in many countries.
      - flyinRyan 14y ago
        That has nothing to do with anything. Do you think countries are consulting scientists before making these kinds of decisions?
    - Nursie 14y ago
      14 years is old enough to know you don't spy on girls.
    - mpyne 14y ago
      I was one of those mythical 14-year-old boys that knew better than to spy on girls by hacking their webcam. I don't know why so many people assume that boys are stupid at age 14 but I can assure that is not the case in general.
  - namenotrequired 14y ago
    Yep, and that's exactly why they do it.
    - DrJokepu 14y ago
      This is a very strong argument.
- satori99 14y ago
  Perhaps. Or maybe they are adults with a 14yo mentality. Either way it is so 'not cool' that even a 14yo should know this. They are inflicting real pain on another human being for laughs, and that is evil in my book.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  Minors or adults, this is a startling demonstration of psychopathy. It's one thing to spread fear for profit, it's a whole 'nother ball game to do it for fun.
  - cup 14y ago
    Psychopathy? I think it's more likely an excess of free time and puberty boosting testosterone in young men. These are just inquisitive, snooping horny teenagers.
    - potatolicious 14y ago
      They're not just doing garden-variety spying - they're deliberating trying to cause fear in their subjects by broadcasting their own presence. There's a pretty big difference between a peeping tom, and a peeping tom who then mails you pictures taken through your window. One has no sense of boundaries, the other is taking glee in others' suffering and fear. I'm a lot more concerned about the latter group - the lack of empathy is disturbing.
    - king_jester 14y ago
      This is the equivalent of saying 'boys will be boys'. Dismissing this kind of sexual coercion and spying as just natural behavior is hugely sexist and insulting to men and boys everywhere, let alone encourages this kind of treatment of women.
- mdwe 14y ago
  And so the gender gap in computing begins.
unreal37 14y ago
This just makes me sad for the future. Ugh. I couldn't read the rest of that article after page 1.
gosu 14y ago
I went and read the forum in question. It's full of nontechnical people who are obviously teenagers. It reminds me a lot of video game forums I used to visit, with gaudy image signatures and all, except here the competition is to collect (and trade) the best "slaves" and spy on them. My guess is that these people started out with video game cheats and, without anything better to do or anyone to stop them, it spiralled into this. One interesting tidbit is that people seem to often post stories of interactions with their "slaves". It usually involves them trying to seem powerful and scary, but at the same time there's an undertone of wanting to connect with the people that they spy on. For instance, after one guy intentionally outs himself by posting on his "slave's" facebook profile, he chats with her and keeps trying to convince her (in a threatening way) to skype him so that he can show her how to install an antivirus. There are also a lot of interactions of the "put a shoe on your head and hold this sign and I'll stop hacking you" variety. Edit: Also, don't miss that bit at the end about the RAT software author quitting in part because of the Syrian government's use of his software against rebels. Scary stuff.
- satori99 14y ago
  > without anything better to do or anyone to stop them, it spiralled into this Surely the basis for not being evil, is to not do bad things to other people by the command of your conscience? I understand that the majority of the offenders are likely children, and I hope that most of them will remember themselves doing this with feelings of shame for a very long time, because these sort of acts are not merely pranks. They may affect their targets in seriously negative ways.
  - gosu 14y ago
    I was just trying to give interesting details, not so much to excuse or accuse. I just meant that, from the tone of discussion and my general impression of the people, that's how I assume that they wound up there. I imagine that it also has to do with amateur porn (not all of which is obviously released with consent) and reality TV making voyeurism a familiar thing. I guess I mostly think of them as dumb and immoral, but I do think that it's evil to have those kinds of interactions with people. I don't understand why people consented to holding up signs that said "pwned by...." - to me, that looks like bullying. Actually, I guess I do kind of understand. I got prank called regularly on high school, and that felt pretty terrible. But I tried to along with it in the hope of defusing it amicably, and it took me a long time to admit that I was a victim and go to a third party to make it stop (the equivalent here would be to reinstall windows).
scotty79 14y ago
That's just internet version of peeping your neighbors through binoculars and leaving them shit on the doorstep to mess with them. Obnoxious, insensitive, but evil? Like axis of evil - evil? Like evil marketing practices of pharmaceutical companies - evil? Nah. Just kids ... of any age. They were bothered by making little kid cry. Can't be that evil.
- satori99 14y ago
  I disagree. Not everyone has an easy relationship with computers and technology. These sort of acts have the potential to seriously disturb some people that have been forced to use the Internet to get by in modern life, but do not have a full grasp of what it is and how it works. How would you feel if this was done to your Grandmother?
  - scotty79 14y ago
    Pretty much same way as if someone would peep at my Grandmother disturbing her and left something disturbing on her doorstep or teased her any other way. Actually I'd feel bit better because in computer scenario I would know what to do help her.
- tlrobinson 14y ago
  At the very least the extortionists are pretty damn evil.
- pimentel 14y ago
  What about discovering that you, a young girl, have been seen naked on your webcam? Can you imagine what that can do to the mind of a child/young adult? Imagine all the troubles that can bring to a human mind, and imagine if that mind can already be a little troubled. I say pure evil. Like holocaust evil, just at a smaller scale.
  - RobertHoudin 14y ago
    Yes, peeping on someone is equivalent to the torture and murder of human beings.
Confusion 14y ago
What is your point? Why do you feel the need to share this?
coldtea 14y ago
Or bored teenagers from some suburban hell-hole with nothing better to do, that haven't developed any sense of morality yet, and think this is just fun. They could be kicked all day and have their glasses broken (metaphorically speaking) at school.

People that do this are evil.

chrischen 14y ago

As the article suggests, the people who do this are probably 14 year old boys.

veb 14y ago
It's been going on for a loooooong time. Sub7 anyone? I'm sure most of us were once 14, and unsupervised and didn't do anything evil.
- psionski 14y ago
  wolf3d.exe on a floppy -> "This self-extracting zip archive is corrupted!" :P P.S. Now that I typed the file's name (it was really wolf3d.exe), I suddenly feel old... Not to mention the "floppy" bit :)
DrJokepu 14y ago
By the age of 14 you are supposed to have a developed enough sense of morality to understand that this is very bad. I don't think this is an acceptable excuse.
- kalleboo 14y ago
  One way of learning is by making mistakes
  - satori99 14y ago
    How many slaves, oops, I mean mistakes, do you think it takes to learn that this is a bad thing to do?
  - rayiner 14y ago
    That's just a stupid Americanism.[1] You don't need to do a bunch of wrong things to learn what's wrong. You learn what's right and wrong because your parents tell you what's right and wrong, and society and school socializes you to teach you what's right and wrong. If you get to 14 and need to scare someone like this to learn what's right and wrong, you're either defective or your parents and teachers have failed at their jobs. More likely, you know it's wrong and you just don't care. [1] I'm an American and love America, but we elevate apologizing for bad things kids do (because we don't have the stomach to properly discipline them) to an art form.
    - Nursie 14y ago
      "we elevate apologizing for bad things kids do (because we don't have the stomach to properly discipline them) to an art form." Conversely, the US seems fond of trying kids as adults when they cross some or other threshold of crime. As an outside observer it seems an odd contradiction.
    - solistice 14y ago
      This might be somewhat ranty and unprofessional, but I have to say it You learn what's wrong from your parents, and your teachers, and society. I'd like to disagree with you on that point. Yes, you get ideas passed down to your by others, but if you do not bother to examine them and act blindly on the premise that these things must be right, because others told you, without putting any deliberation into the truth of these moral dictates, then...how to get this across without seeming as angry and ranty as I am? Because things like this viscerally disgust me. My parent taught me they didn't care (or couldn't), my school taught me I was in the wrong place, and my peers taught me that I was scum. And I didn't act on those morals, or I wouldn't be writing this paragraph, nor living, nor breathing. Of course, this didn't last forever. I recovered, and I learned how to deal with people. But what you just said, that I...I was defective for not leaving a place that obviously didn't welcome me, the implication that I should have crossed hades, that's worse than telling me to "go die", because you said it with moral righteousness. Now I know you're talking about 14 year olds that spy on girls, and I don't think that's morally right either, but your explanation of why it isn't, it's just...wrong somehow. Firstof, they're not defective. Don't even say a child is broken. Misunderstood? Maybe. Misled? Maybe. But not broken nor defective nor hopeless. Because when you take a child, filled with expectations and hope, trying to make sense of the things that happen in the world, and you tell them they're broken, you're killing them. Yes, some might recover from it, just as someone shot might survive, but you and I agree that shooting a kid is still a pretty bad thing to do, no matter whether they survive or not, right? So don't do it. Ok, so after I've vented some of my anger, and proably shared way to personal details with everyone on here, back to business. Society is a pretty bad measuring stick for morals. Define the "average morals" to be the reference point, and Schindler becomes the most amoral man in the third reich. You see how this averaging is a pretty bad idea, right? Ok. Then to the disciplining thing. There's a difference between teaching something to your kids, and threatening them to do something. Teaching leads to moral understanding and a moral code. Threats will only teach that might is right, and the only thing holding together morals is violence. I think this worldview does point towards why religious people often ask atheist why they don't think the world will collapse into anarchy without the concept of a hell. Because hell is violence as the foundation of morals. If you want to affect any of those kids, go out and teach them why it's wrong instead of threatening to hit them if they do it again. TL;DR: As a past victim of social ostracism, post makes me angry. Average morals are a bad idea. Disciplining kids will lead to obedience from threat, not to morals. Teaching will. So go teach
- Confusion 14y ago
  Who are these mythical 14 year old boys that are supposed to have developed 'enough' of a sense of morality? To paraphrase The Virgin Suicides: obviously Dr., you never were a 14 year old boy.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    14 is older than the age of criminal responsibility in many countries.
    - flyinRyan 14y ago
      That has nothing to do with anything. Do you think countries are consulting scientists before making these kinds of decisions?
  - Nursie 14y ago
    14 years is old enough to know you don't spy on girls.
  - mpyne 14y ago
    I was one of those mythical 14-year-old boys that knew better than to spy on girls by hacking their webcam. I don't know why so many people assume that boys are stupid at age 14 but I can assure that is not the case in general.
- namenotrequired 14y ago
  Yep, and that's exactly why they do it.
  - DrJokepu 14y ago
    This is a very strong argument.
satori99 14y ago
Perhaps. Or maybe they are adults with a 14yo mentality. Either way it is so 'not cool' that even a 14yo should know this. They are inflicting real pain on another human being for laughs, and that is evil in my book.
potatolicious 14y ago
Minors or adults, this is a startling demonstration of psychopathy. It's one thing to spread fear for profit, it's a whole 'nother ball game to do it for fun.
- cup 14y ago
  Psychopathy? I think it's more likely an excess of free time and puberty boosting testosterone in young men. These are just inquisitive, snooping horny teenagers.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    They're not just doing garden-variety spying - they're deliberating trying to cause fear in their subjects by broadcasting their own presence. There's a pretty big difference between a peeping tom, and a peeping tom who then mails you pictures taken through your window. One has no sense of boundaries, the other is taking glee in others' suffering and fear. I'm a lot more concerned about the latter group - the lack of empathy is disturbing.
  - king_jester 14y ago
    This is the equivalent of saying 'boys will be boys'. Dismissing this kind of sexual coercion and spying as just natural behavior is hugely sexist and insulting to men and boys everywhere, let alone encourages this kind of treatment of women.
mdwe 14y ago
And so the gender gap in computing begins.

unreal37 14y ago

This just makes me sad for the future. Ugh. I couldn't read the rest of that article after page 1.

gosu 14y ago

I went and read the forum in question. It's full of nontechnical people who are obviously teenagers. It reminds me a lot of video game forums I used to visit, with gaudy image signatures and all, except here the competition is to collect (and trade) the best "slaves" and spy on them. My guess is that these people started out with video game cheats and, without anything better to do or anyone to stop them, it spiralled into this. One interesting tidbit is that people seem to often post stories of interactions with their "slaves". It usually involves them trying to seem powerful and scary, but at the same time there's an undertone of wanting to connect with the people that they spy on. For instance, after one guy intentionally outs himself by posting on his "slave's" facebook profile, he chats with her and keeps trying to convince her (in a threatening way) to skype him so that he can show her how to install an antivirus. There are also a lot of interactions of the "put a shoe on your head and hold this sign and I'll stop hacking you" variety. Edit: Also, don't miss that bit at the end about the RAT software author quitting in part because of the Syrian government's use of his software against rebels. Scary stuff.

satori99 14y ago
> without anything better to do or anyone to stop them, it spiralled into this Surely the basis for not being evil, is to not do bad things to other people by the command of your conscience? I understand that the majority of the offenders are likely children, and I hope that most of them will remember themselves doing this with feelings of shame for a very long time, because these sort of acts are not merely pranks. They may affect their targets in seriously negative ways.
- gosu 14y ago
  I was just trying to give interesting details, not so much to excuse or accuse. I just meant that, from the tone of discussion and my general impression of the people, that's how I assume that they wound up there. I imagine that it also has to do with amateur porn (not all of which is obviously released with consent) and reality TV making voyeurism a familiar thing. I guess I mostly think of them as dumb and immoral, but I do think that it's evil to have those kinds of interactions with people. I don't understand why people consented to holding up signs that said "pwned by...." - to me, that looks like bullying. Actually, I guess I do kind of understand. I got prank called regularly on high school, and that felt pretty terrible. But I tried to along with it in the hope of defusing it amicably, and it took me a long time to admit that I was a victim and go to a third party to make it stop (the equivalent here would be to reinstall windows).

scotty79 14y ago

That's just internet version of peeping your neighbors through binoculars and leaving them shit on the doorstep to mess with them. Obnoxious, insensitive, but evil? Like axis of evil - evil? Like evil marketing practices of pharmaceutical companies - evil? Nah. Just kids ... of any age. They were bothered by making little kid cry. Can't be that evil.

satori99 14y ago
I disagree. Not everyone has an easy relationship with computers and technology. These sort of acts have the potential to seriously disturb some people that have been forced to use the Internet to get by in modern life, but do not have a full grasp of what it is and how it works. How would you feel if this was done to your Grandmother?
- scotty79 14y ago
  Pretty much same way as if someone would peep at my Grandmother disturbing her and left something disturbing on her doorstep or teased her any other way. Actually I'd feel bit better because in computer scenario I would know what to do help her.
tlrobinson 14y ago
At the very least the extortionists are pretty damn evil.
pimentel 14y ago
What about discovering that you, a young girl, have been seen naked on your webcam? Can you imagine what that can do to the mind of a child/young adult? Imagine all the troubles that can bring to a human mind, and imagine if that mind can already be a little troubled. I say pure evil. Like holocaust evil, just at a smaller scale.
- RobertHoudin 14y ago
  Yes, peeping on someone is equivalent to the torture and murder of human beings.

Confusion 14y ago

What is your point? Why do you feel the need to share this?

coldtea 14y ago

Or bored teenagers from some suburban hell-hole with nothing better to do, that haven't developed any sense of morality yet, and think this is just fun. They could be kicked all day and have their glasses broken (metaphorically speaking) at school.