7 ms·

I think it’s pretty normal if you are tired of the constant portrayal of women as weak, helpless and passive in certain media. What’s so wrong with calling out

by arrrg 14y ago

I think it’s pretty normal if you are tired of the constant portrayal of women as weak, helpless and passive in certain media. What’s so wrong with calling out lazy storytelling based on dumb stereotypes? How can you even have a problem with that? I also like how you just declare something harmless. Why, exactly? It’s a part of video game history that lives on and is anything but harmless. Calling out crap is wrong – why exactly? Or is the portrayal of women as weak, helpless and passive – especially in a world where this is a popular stereotype – not crap? Nobody wants to burn cartridges or rewrite history or ban old games. People (for the most part) don’t even demonize anyone for this or blame anyone for acting maliciously. Is pointing something out (or privately doing something about it) really such a big deal? I really don’t get contrarians like you. Your arguments make no sense at all. (Except if you believe that women really are naturally weak, helpless and passive, i.e. hold sexist beliefs.)

Karunamon 14y ago
>What’s so wrong with calling out lazy storytelling based on dumb stereotypes? What exactly do you hope to accomplish by calling out arguably "lazy storytelling" (more like a homage to King Kong if some stories are to be believed) 32 years later? It's like complaining about racism in the early Bugs Bunny cartoons. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish other than a gripe? Damn Nintendo for using a common story trope three decades ago! What does this teach anyone? How horrible Nintendo is? What? >I really don’t get contrarians like you. Your arguments make no sense at all. (Except if you believe that women really are naturally weak, helpless and passive, i.e. hold sexist beliefs.) This was utterly unnecessary. If I'm a "contrarian", you are someone who searches for things to be offended by.
- arrrg 14y ago
  Uhm, you do know that the trope lives on in Mario games? You are aware of that? Also, looking at history can be interesting and illustrative.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    You are aware that the particular character hasn't appeared in a game since? You are aware that the trope you're referring to has been subverted, inverted, and toyed with just about every way possible by the very same company?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - arrrg 14y ago
      I certainly am. What has that to do with the comment I made?! Also, I am not aware of any serious attempts inside the Mario franchise to seriously subvert or invert the trope. I see an endless history of portraying women as weak, helpless and passive. Sad, really.
      - Karunamon 14y ago
        Let's see.. Pretty sure Peach has her own game on which the entire concept is getting the Mario Bros. out of trouble (the name is eluding me right now, it's on the DS). She's personally helped save the world more than once (Paper Mario 2 comes to mind). There are other female characters too.. Timpani from Super Paper Mario has a huge dynamic with the primary antagonist of the game. And if you look outside of that particular franchise, you'd be remiss not to look at Samus Aran (minus one almost universally panned game with an outsourced plot), arguably the poster child for strong female leads in video games.
        arrrg 14y ago
        Yes, the Princess Peach game where she has to cry to save Mario. Vomit. You know, subverting the trope a little bit (sometimes) is maybe nice, certainly, however, not enough when you use it all the fucking time, to this day.
        egypturnash 14y ago
        Finding a tiny handful of female protagonists really doesn't change the fact that video games are pretty much a sausage festival, where women are typically presented as helpless prizes to be won or rescued. Despite what the high-budget video game developers think, video games are not played exclusively by guys. Girls play them too. And maybe we'd like to have some fantasies where someone like us gets to kick ass and save the world, or at least the day, too.
newnewnew 14y ago
Down with the sexists who believe that humans exhibit sexual dimorphism!
- boomlinde 14y ago
  Yes, let's be realistic here. Men are a lot more likely to end up in situations where they'll have to save someone from a giant gorilla. To put sexual dimorphism into question by suggesting that a woman could as well save a man from the giant gorilla is a slap in the face of biology! That would be unrealistic and unfair to men, women and giant gorillas alike.
Camillo 14y ago
First, women are smaller and weaker than men, on average, and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes reality has a conservative bias, you know? (But it would be more accurate to say that traditional ideas often have some basis in reality.) Second, I don't see why you have to demean all the men and women who are weak and passive. Their lives are perfectly worthwhile too, and they have something to contribute other than brawn and testosterone. Third, boys embraced video games as a pastime when most girls thought it was stupid crap for loser nerds. I think it's great that many more girls are into video games now, and that all the big companies want to make money by selling video games to girls. But don't act as if the large back catalog of boy-oriented games is some sort of social injustice. When the first GI Joe doll for boys (aka "action figure") came out, did people start whining because almost all existing dolls were designed for girls? No. Fourth, there are many girls (but also boys) that would be better served by something other than a simple sprite swap on the same action game idea. But your ridiculously limited ideas of what's good and valuable (big, strong, person! Death to enemies! Woe be the weak!) would leave them high and dry.
- XorNot 14y ago
  Yes I'm sure in a videogame it's very important it be informed by reality. You know, in a video game where the antagonist is a giant ape throwing barrels at you. Why, whenever someone does something simple like this, does someone feel it sooo important to come and remind us about how on average women have blah blah blah properties.
  - Camillo 14y ago
    I am responding to arrrg's comment, not to TFA.
- arrrg 14y ago
  I think it was pretty clear that I was not talking about muscle strength, you know. (And if you want to get down that route, I’m willing to bet that in general, overweight plumbers have less jumping ability than fit women.) Also, I’m a shy introvert and I certainly do not want to demean anyone who is also that – I don’t think I did, actually. There is nothing wrong with shy and introverted characters, even weak characters or passive ones. That is not the problem. Those characters can all happily exist. The problem is that those characters tend to overwhelmingly be women. In that light, I believe you misinterpreted me completely. I want better storytelling and more complex characters. I have really no problem with that. I do not want video games to again and again and again pick up on the same old lazy stereotype of women as being passive and weak. That’s it.
lifebar 14y ago
"What’s so wrong with calling out lazy storytelling based on dumb stereotypes?" Well, biologically men are physically stronger. So it's just logical that man saves woman in game. (By the way - lowered physical strength standards for women in US that want to become firefighter/police officers says a lot.) "Your arguments make no sense at all." And you gave no arguments what so ever.

by arrrg 14y ago

Karunamon 14y ago

>What’s so wrong with calling out lazy storytelling based on dumb stereotypes? What exactly do you hope to accomplish by calling out arguably "lazy storytelling" (more like a homage to King Kong if some stories are to be believed) 32 years later? It's like complaining about racism in the early Bugs Bunny cartoons. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish other than a gripe? Damn Nintendo for using a common story trope three decades ago! What does this teach anyone? How horrible Nintendo is? What? >I really don’t get contrarians like you. Your arguments make no sense at all. (Except if you believe that women really are naturally weak, helpless and passive, i.e. hold sexist beliefs.) This was utterly unnecessary. If I'm a "contrarian", you are someone who searches for things to be offended by.

arrrg 14y ago
Uhm, you do know that the trope lives on in Mario games? You are aware of that? Also, looking at history can be interesting and illustrative.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  You are aware that the particular character hasn't appeared in a game since? You are aware that the trope you're referring to has been subverted, inverted, and toyed with just about every way possible by the very same company?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - arrrg 14y ago
    I certainly am. What has that to do with the comment I made?! Also, I am not aware of any serious attempts inside the Mario franchise to seriously subvert or invert the trope. I see an endless history of portraying women as weak, helpless and passive. Sad, really.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      Let's see.. Pretty sure Peach has her own game on which the entire concept is getting the Mario Bros. out of trouble (the name is eluding me right now, it's on the DS). She's personally helped save the world more than once (Paper Mario 2 comes to mind). There are other female characters too.. Timpani from Super Paper Mario has a huge dynamic with the primary antagonist of the game. And if you look outside of that particular franchise, you'd be remiss not to look at Samus Aran (minus one almost universally panned game with an outsourced plot), arguably the poster child for strong female leads in video games.
      - arrrg 14y ago
        Yes, the Princess Peach game where she has to cry to save Mario. Vomit. You know, subverting the trope a little bit (sometimes) is maybe nice, certainly, however, not enough when you use it all the fucking time, to this day.
      - egypturnash 14y ago
        Finding a tiny handful of female protagonists really doesn't change the fact that video games are pretty much a sausage festival, where women are typically presented as helpless prizes to be won or rescued. Despite what the high-budget video game developers think, video games are not played exclusively by guys. Girls play them too. And maybe we'd like to have some fantasies where someone like us gets to kick ass and save the world, or at least the day, too.

newnewnew 14y ago

Down with the sexists who believe that humans exhibit sexual dimorphism!

boomlinde 14y ago
Yes, let's be realistic here. Men are a lot more likely to end up in situations where they'll have to save someone from a giant gorilla. To put sexual dimorphism into question by suggesting that a woman could as well save a man from the giant gorilla is a slap in the face of biology! That would be unrealistic and unfair to men, women and giant gorillas alike.

Camillo 14y ago

First, women are smaller and weaker than men, on average, and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes reality has a conservative bias, you know? (But it would be more accurate to say that traditional ideas often have some basis in reality.) Second, I don't see why you have to demean all the men and women who are weak and passive. Their lives are perfectly worthwhile too, and they have something to contribute other than brawn and testosterone. Third, boys embraced video games as a pastime when most girls thought it was stupid crap for loser nerds. I think it's great that many more girls are into video games now, and that all the big companies want to make money by selling video games to girls. But don't act as if the large back catalog of boy-oriented games is some sort of social injustice. When the first GI Joe doll for boys (aka "action figure") came out, did people start whining because almost all existing dolls were designed for girls? No. Fourth, there are many girls (but also boys) that would be better served by something other than a simple sprite swap on the same action game idea. But your ridiculously limited ideas of what's good and valuable (big, strong, person! Death to enemies! Woe be the weak!) would leave them high and dry.

XorNot 14y ago
Yes I'm sure in a videogame it's very important it be informed by reality. You know, in a video game where the antagonist is a giant ape throwing barrels at you. Why, whenever someone does something simple like this, does someone feel it sooo important to come and remind us about how on average women have blah blah blah properties.
- Camillo 14y ago
  I am responding to arrrg's comment, not to TFA.
arrrg 14y ago
I think it was pretty clear that I was not talking about muscle strength, you know. (And if you want to get down that route, I’m willing to bet that in general, overweight plumbers have less jumping ability than fit women.) Also, I’m a shy introvert and I certainly do not want to demean anyone who is also that – I don’t think I did, actually. There is nothing wrong with shy and introverted characters, even weak characters or passive ones. That is not the problem. Those characters can all happily exist. The problem is that those characters tend to overwhelmingly be women. In that light, I believe you misinterpreted me completely. I want better storytelling and more complex characters. I have really no problem with that. I do not want video games to again and again and again pick up on the same old lazy stereotype of women as being passive and weak. That’s it.

lifebar 14y ago

"What’s so wrong with calling out lazy storytelling based on dumb stereotypes?" Well, biologically men are physically stronger. So it's just logical that man saves woman in game. (By the way - lowered physical strength standards for women in US that want to become firefighter/police officers says a lot.) "Your arguments make no sense at all." And you gave no arguments what so ever.