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"The purpose of the TSA is not to catch every piece of contraband; it is to reduce aircraft attacks." Here I was, thinking that the security checkpoint was a m

"The purpose of the TSA is not to catch every piece of contraband; it is to reduce aircraft attacks." Here I was, thinking that the security checkpoint was a measure to make everyone feel safer. Thanks for clearing that one up! "An attack looks like it will take so much effort that the terrorist is no longer interested (terrorists are lazy, too) or capable" Except that you can buy or obtain all the things needed to kill people on an airplane on the other side of the security check. You can buy glass, you can get knives from restaurants, etc. The fact that you get a security check long before you are anywhere near an airplane leaves a lot of room for an attacker, even a solo terrorist who is not particularly creative. Note that the Israeli approach involves walking up to the door of an airplane without any carry-ons or shoes. Profiling is needed to determine who is even worth the attention (if they did that to everyone, there would be riots). Meanwhile, the TSA will let you bring a pocket knife onto a plane, which is more than enough to kill people. The real difference today is not that terrorists have a harder time bringing weapons onto planes, but that passengers and crew do not believe they will survive a hijacking. People will now fight back. The locked cockpit doors -- locked from the inside -- help a lot too. Any security beyond explosives detection is pointless, and you could have that sort of security right at the departure gates. I personally doubt that the TSA checkpoints were ever meant to keep us secure. The Bush administration just needed to reassure people that we would have better security than we did beforehand, in a visible and easy-to-understand way. Now the agency is huge and no politician can afford to void against checkpoints, just in case a clever terrorist manages to hijack a plane (or perhaps shoot it down with a surface-to-air missile; people would probably blame lax airport security in that case too). It also helps that so many contracts are awarded for building the TSA's equipment, and that the TSA has substantially weakened Americans' ideas about civil rights (and what mainstream politician will complain about such things?).

codex 14y ago
I should clarify that I think the TSA wants to prevent airline bombings (that is, loss of a plane) above all else. Hijackings are much more difficult than they were before 9/11, even if the terrorists were in a group and allowed some weapons. I don't think the TSA is, or should be, focusing on hijackings. AFAIK, since 9/11 there have been no more hijacking attempts, but several bombing attempts.
- betterunix 14y ago
  "I should clarify that I think the TSA wants to prevent airline bombings (that is, loss of a plane) above all else." I have my doubts about that as well. I would think that the lack of K-9 teams near departure gates is a good sign that bombings are not the concern of the TSA when it comes to airport security. Bombings are probably a concern somewhere, but the security checkpoints do not seem to do much when it comes to stopping a bomb plot. Keep in mind that private planes are exempt from the security checks. If a terrorist wanted to blow up a commercial plane, what would stop them from chartering a private jet, bringing bombs on board, and then ramming their explosive-laden plane into an airliner mid-flight? Why even bother doing it in flight? A terrorist might just roll their chartered jet into a fully-loaded passenger plane on the runway, and blow up a plane in front of a crowd of people. Perhaps there is some other procedure in place to ensure that no bombs can make it past the numerous ways that people and vehicles can enter an airport without going through a security checkpoint. If that is the case, what is the purpose of the checkpoint? Why not just apply whatever techniques prevent terrorists from ramming private jets into airliners to the rest of the airport, and let us keep our rights intact? It is also worth pointing out that there are lots of other bombing targets that are not being bombed, despite a complete lack of security. Anyone can bring large packages onto the NYC subways without any harassment or scanning, yet those trains (which are packed with hundreds of people during the rush hour) have not been blown up. A truck full of explosives could easily drive onto a major bridge. Yet despite these clear vulnerabilities, and despite the fact that other countries see such attacks and more, we rarely have them here. Are airlines really more special targets for bombers than urban transit systems?
  - taligent 14y ago
    Firstly there are sniffer dogs as well as bomb detection equipment around every airport I've been to. They are just deployed randomly which should be fine as a deterrence. Secondly the reason commercial airlines are different from smaller planes and other bombing targets is because you can use one to kill tens of thousands of people (fly into large skyscrapers). You can't do that with a car bomb or crashing a small plane into a large one. And the fact you have these incidents at all should tell you that airline security is important.
taligent 14y ago
You can buy glass, you can get knives from restaurants. I can't speak for US terminals but in many international ones. The glass you get isn't large enough to cause serious damage e.g. snowdomes and the knives in restaurants have deliberately dull blades. And cockpit doors whilst locked from the inside are routinely opened in order to provide food/drinks to the captain. So it's hardly a fool proof system. But hey don't let me stop with your confused anti-TSA crusade.
- betterunix 14y ago
  That's funny, because the last time I went to an international airport I saw a duty-free shop with big glass bottles full of liquor. Hey, I must be confused about how much glass is needed to make a useful weapon. I have seen plenty of glass that a clever terrorist might steal from restaurants at small regional airports as well. As for knives, any knife that is sharp enough to cut a steak is sharp enough to be used as a weapon. The thing is, I am not a terrorist. What I see as potential weapons are probably just the tip of the iceberg of things that can be turned into a weapon. Prisoners manage to make weapons out of all sorts of seemingly innocuous objects. What makes you think that the things I can identify as possible weapons are an evenly remotely exhaustive list? What makes you think that a terrorist could not find more weapons on the other side of security?
  - taligent 14y ago
    It is non trivial to smash a liquor bottle to produce a long shard strong enough to cause mass damage. And it has to be smashed without rousing attention amongst passengers. And even if you did cut someone it would take minutes to bleed to death. And the knives rely on serration to cut through steak so are very dull. And given that every country in the world has a TSA and abides by almost identical rules I would guess that there is a lot of people thinking about ways to make us safer. Why isn't the status quo the safest yet reasonable measures we have ?
    - betterunix 14y ago
      "It is non trivial to smash a liquor bottle to produce a long shard strong enough to cause mass damage. And it has to be smashed without rousing attention amongst passengers." I am pretty sure a terrorist would (a) practice smashing bottles until he can reliably create a weapon and (b) smash the bottle before boarding the plane, in an empty bathroom (I have been to international airports where no flights depart from an entire section during the night, yet passengers are free to wander around or sit in those sections), and just carry it on board because there are no security checks before boarding the plane. "And the knives rely on serration to cut through steak so are very dull." So you think a somewhat dull serrated edge could not be used as a weapon? Prisoners manage to use far less effective weapons to kill each other; why couldn't terrorists do it? "given that every country in the world has a TSA" What is your point? Everyone has a public display of their airport security? Do you think that it is impossible that everyone just wants their citizens to feel safe and that the point of a public security check is to do just that?
Evbn 14y ago
Have you actually seen a non-plastic knife in a secure area of an airport?

codex 14y ago

I should clarify that I think the TSA wants to prevent airline bombings (that is, loss of a plane) above all else. Hijackings are much more difficult than they were before 9/11, even if the terrorists were in a group and allowed some weapons. I don't think the TSA is, or should be, focusing on hijackings. AFAIK, since 9/11 there have been no more hijacking attempts, but several bombing attempts.

betterunix 14y ago
"I should clarify that I think the TSA wants to prevent airline bombings (that is, loss of a plane) above all else." I have my doubts about that as well. I would think that the lack of K-9 teams near departure gates is a good sign that bombings are not the concern of the TSA when it comes to airport security. Bombings are probably a concern somewhere, but the security checkpoints do not seem to do much when it comes to stopping a bomb plot. Keep in mind that private planes are exempt from the security checks. If a terrorist wanted to blow up a commercial plane, what would stop them from chartering a private jet, bringing bombs on board, and then ramming their explosive-laden plane into an airliner mid-flight? Why even bother doing it in flight? A terrorist might just roll their chartered jet into a fully-loaded passenger plane on the runway, and blow up a plane in front of a crowd of people. Perhaps there is some other procedure in place to ensure that no bombs can make it past the numerous ways that people and vehicles can enter an airport without going through a security checkpoint. If that is the case, what is the purpose of the checkpoint? Why not just apply whatever techniques prevent terrorists from ramming private jets into airliners to the rest of the airport, and let us keep our rights intact? It is also worth pointing out that there are lots of other bombing targets that are not being bombed, despite a complete lack of security. Anyone can bring large packages onto the NYC subways without any harassment or scanning, yet those trains (which are packed with hundreds of people during the rush hour) have not been blown up. A truck full of explosives could easily drive onto a major bridge. Yet despite these clear vulnerabilities, and despite the fact that other countries see such attacks and more, we rarely have them here. Are airlines really more special targets for bombers than urban transit systems?
- taligent 14y ago
  Firstly there are sniffer dogs as well as bomb detection equipment around every airport I've been to. They are just deployed randomly which should be fine as a deterrence. Secondly the reason commercial airlines are different from smaller planes and other bombing targets is because you can use one to kill tens of thousands of people (fly into large skyscrapers). You can't do that with a car bomb or crashing a small plane into a large one. And the fact you have these incidents at all should tell you that airline security is important.

taligent 14y ago

You can buy glass, you can get knives from restaurants. I can't speak for US terminals but in many international ones. The glass you get isn't large enough to cause serious damage e.g. snowdomes and the knives in restaurants have deliberately dull blades. And cockpit doors whilst locked from the inside are routinely opened in order to provide food/drinks to the captain. So it's hardly a fool proof system. But hey don't let me stop with your confused anti-TSA crusade.

betterunix 14y ago
That's funny, because the last time I went to an international airport I saw a duty-free shop with big glass bottles full of liquor. Hey, I must be confused about how much glass is needed to make a useful weapon. I have seen plenty of glass that a clever terrorist might steal from restaurants at small regional airports as well. As for knives, any knife that is sharp enough to cut a steak is sharp enough to be used as a weapon. The thing is, I am not a terrorist. What I see as potential weapons are probably just the tip of the iceberg of things that can be turned into a weapon. Prisoners manage to make weapons out of all sorts of seemingly innocuous objects. What makes you think that the things I can identify as possible weapons are an evenly remotely exhaustive list? What makes you think that a terrorist could not find more weapons on the other side of security?
- taligent 14y ago
  It is non trivial to smash a liquor bottle to produce a long shard strong enough to cause mass damage. And it has to be smashed without rousing attention amongst passengers. And even if you did cut someone it would take minutes to bleed to death. And the knives rely on serration to cut through steak so are very dull. And given that every country in the world has a TSA and abides by almost identical rules I would guess that there is a lot of people thinking about ways to make us safer. Why isn't the status quo the safest yet reasonable measures we have ?
  - betterunix 14y ago
    "It is non trivial to smash a liquor bottle to produce a long shard strong enough to cause mass damage. And it has to be smashed without rousing attention amongst passengers." I am pretty sure a terrorist would (a) practice smashing bottles until he can reliably create a weapon and (b) smash the bottle before boarding the plane, in an empty bathroom (I have been to international airports where no flights depart from an entire section during the night, yet passengers are free to wander around or sit in those sections), and just carry it on board because there are no security checks before boarding the plane. "And the knives rely on serration to cut through steak so are very dull." So you think a somewhat dull serrated edge could not be used as a weapon? Prisoners manage to use far less effective weapons to kill each other; why couldn't terrorists do it? "given that every country in the world has a TSA" What is your point? Everyone has a public display of their airport security? Do you think that it is impossible that everyone just wants their citizens to feel safe and that the point of a public security check is to do just that?

Evbn 14y ago

Have you actually seen a non-plastic knife in a secure area of an airport?