5 ms·

Mozilla says no plans to return to iOS until Apple removes restrictions

55 points by booruguru 14y ago

JulianWasTaken 14y ago
Not saying I don't respect the decision and I definitely side with Mozilla here, but > We won't build a competing product on your platform until you make it easier for us to compete! Yeah I'm sure Apple is going to get right on that. All the negative press from their shenanigans these years has really changed their attitude thusfar.
- mtgx 14y ago
  I'm ok with Mozilla's stance on this. I'd be ok with them raising anti-trust issues over this at DoJ, too.
  - rgbrenner 14y ago
    iOS is at 35-40% marketshare.. so there's no chance of an anti-trust suit working. Mozilla would just be wasting resources by attempting it at this point.
    - anonymfus 14y ago
      Depends on market definition. It's around 50% of tablet sales in USA. And it was like 90% soon after start of iPad sales.
- coldtea 14y ago
  >Yeah I'm sure Apple is going to get right on that. All the negative press from their shenanigans these years has really changed their attitude thusfar. Yes, it had. The negative press regarding the restriction to the "languages used for iOS development" had them revise that. The negative press around the iOS acceptance process has them make several changes to the whole process. Even in specific app instances, they have reconsidered inclusion etc after some negative press. And they have responded to the negative press about the iOS Maps and the antenna thing. There are other such examples. So this picture that Apple "never changes its ways" is just not true.
atirip 14y ago
And we are going to have Chrome on Firefox OS when?
- mtgx 14y ago
  That wouldn't be much different than asking if you can use Chrome inside the PC Firefox. When the browser is the OS itself, then you can't ask for that.
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    Like Google Chrome Frame does in Internet Explorer, you mean? I would like for that to be available on other browsers too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_Frame http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_Frame
- kryptiskt 14y ago
  You can build it anytime you want. It doesn't make any sense, though.
  - jbk 14y ago
    How can you build it without native code?
- diggan 14y ago
  If you want to build a browser in a browser, it's just a matter of time. But that feels kind of unnecessary.
  - ithkuil 14y ago
    Far from unnecessary. If your mobile platform is defined in terms of HTML5, it's easy to mix up the layer of mobile platform with the layer of browser user experience. The think that probably couldn't technically happen is to install chrome and run firefox OS apps on top of the chrome engine, but that's a completely different issue. (I wrote "probably" because, well, we've seen all kind of hacks and many impossible things will be made)
blibble 14y ago
guess they won't be returning to iOS then...
kaolinite 14y ago
All they're doing there is making their browser less relevant on the desktop. It's an expectation now that your phone and desktop should stay synced so that article you were reading on your phone is right there on your desktop too, and that bookmark you saved on your desktop is available whilst you're on the bus - this is just going to cripple Firefox further.
- mhurron 14y ago
  Keeping bookmarks in sync between Mobile Safari, Safari and Firefox could be done without Mozilla having to create a Firefox that is just a reskinning of Safari on iOS.
- bdisraeli 14y ago
  Not all Smartphone users are iPhone users.[1] I use Firefox for Android as my primary mobile browser and am mostly pretty happy with it (I stay on the Beta channel so occasionally there are stability problems). In addition, Mozilla will soon have an entire mobile OS[2] based on their browser. HN always seem quick to jump on the whole "Firefox is dying" meme, but Firefox still seems to to have about 20% market share in most usage reports I've seen[3][4]. I think it's great to see the Mozilla Foundation continue to standup for their principles. [1] http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2335616 http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2335616 [2] http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/partners/ http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/partners/ [3] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/chrome-hits-17-month-low-windows-8-still-only-creeping-upward/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/chrome... [4] http://gs.statcounter.com/ http://gs.statcounter.com/
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    "Not all Smartphone users are iPhone users." Not all mobile computing devices are smartphones. If you add tablets and PMPs to the mix, iOS has quite a presence. "Firefox still seems to to have about 20% market share" If 20% is enough to be called a major player (and I think it does), then surely you agree it's hard to ignore iOS.
    - 14y ago
niggler 14y ago
"Rosenblatt queried the audience to find out how many people were iOS users, and a majority of hands went up. By contrast, when he asked how many of them were suffering, just a few hands surfaced." Do people expect a full browser in Firefox for iOS or a skin atop the UIWebView? If its the latter (which, as I understand it, is what Chrome for iOS is) then is Firefox for iOS really important on any level?
- objclxt 14y ago
  Chrome for iOS is a little bit more than a skin on top of a UIWebView - the entire Chromium networking stack has been ported over. The upshot of this is that Chrome for iOS supports SPDY, whilst Mobile Safari doesn't. My understanding is that WebRTC should be going into the iOS Chrome build at some point in the future as well. A UIWebView is used for rendering, but there's a lot more Chrome code in that app than you might at first think.
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    Eh, the renderer is the most important part of a browser by far. It's where all of the user-facing innovation happens.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - fzzzy 14y ago
      You don't think the JIT is an important part of a browser?
      - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        Yeah, you're right, the JS engine as well a the renderer are about equally important. But I was trying to fight off the notion that Chrome for iOS is much more than a skin because it has its own network stack. It's a little more than skin, but the most important bits are off limits.
Tloewald 14y ago
Firefox was on iOS? It's only available by turning allowing "dangerous" apps on kindle (not via the kindle store) and I see it's in Google Play but wasn't for quite a while. I love these "open" platforms. Now that VP8 is licensed by MPEG-LA I guess it's time for Firefox to drop support for it. Oh, and I'd like Firefox to take the same approach to fonts — don't display anything in proprietary fonts.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  Mozilla had an app named 'Firefox Home' in the App Store. It allowed you to view your desktop Firefox bookmarks, tabs, and history - which it would then display in a regular webview. Mozilla pulled the app last year. http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/01/mozilla-pulls-firefox-home-from-the-ios-app-store-posts-source/ http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/01/mozilla-pulls-firefox-hom...
- myko 14y ago
  > I see it's in Google Play but wasn't for quite a while. I love these "open" platforms. What are you getting at here? It was available on Google Play as soon as Mozilla had it ready.
  - fpgeek 14y ago
    Indeed. In fact, it was ready so long ago that Firefox was in the Android Market for almost a year.
    - Tloewald 14y ago
      I've guess I've just been horribly misled by going into Google Play on my Nexus 7 (which I preordered) and searching for Firefox.
      - myko 14y ago
        You don't see Firefox available on your Nexus 7? Have you modded it in any way? Firefox works fine on the Nexus 7. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.firefox https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.fi... and the beta: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.firefox_beta https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.fi...
kayoone 14y ago
Apple is doing the same things today with safari on iOS that MS did with IE back in the Day.
- bjelkeman-again 14y ago
  Not a good comparison. IE's core wasn't available open source, as WebKit is, so others could build on the rendering engine. I agree that iOS should be open for other browsers though.
  - kayoone 14y ago
    The core being open source does not change the user experience though. Apple locked Safari as the default browser.
  - untog 14y ago
    In this context, I don't see how that's relevant. Whether IE was open source or not wasn't relevant to them bundling it with the OS to establish a dominant market position.
  - Jare 14y ago
    A stark reminder that "Open Source" and "free as in freedom" do not necessarily go hand in hand.
  - scholia 14y ago
    IE's rendering engine wasn't open source but other browser developers were welcome to use it. The award-winning Maxthon browser did that well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxthon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxthon
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  I'd say it's much worse (what Apple is doing), since there's no way to change the default browser.
  - yxhuvud 14y ago
lttlrck 14y ago
Return? Never actually noticed they were there. Google seem to have managed well enough on iOS, Mozilla could be missing out.
- mtgx 14y ago
  Chrome is based on Webkit, so the changes weren't that major for them. But they still suffer by not being able to use V8, and not being able to use Nitro with JIT either.
bartl 14y ago
I don't see how Apple's attitude here is any better than Microsoft's stand regarding browsers on Windows, a few years ago, and for which they got a huge fine in Europe. If anything, Apple's attitude ("The company prevents its users from making any other application the default browser") is worse.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  Microsoft got a fine for breaking its promise to offer consumers using its Windows system a choice of rival internet browsers (the browser choice screen). That offer was made by Microsoft to stave off an investigation by the EU in the bundling of Internet Explorer with Windows. That possible investigation was requested in light of earlier convictions of Microsoft for abusing its dominant position in the market (and earlier broken promises). Apple has no such dominant position in the market, nor has it ever been fined for abusing it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/mar/06/mirosoft-eu-fine-antitrust-european-commission http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/mar/06/mirosoft-eu... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_compet...
  - fulafel 14y ago
    Apple's tablet market share is big enough to qualify.
    - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
      IANAL, but according to Wikipedia, it comes down to 'market definition' [1]. The computer market as a whole was recognized to be a 'relevant market', in which Microsoft was found to have a dominant position [2]. It's up to lawyers and economists to decide whether the current tablet offerings make up a market in that sense, separate from the cell phone market or the computer market. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_definition [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law#Dominance_and_monopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law#...
cbeach 14y ago
I'm weeping tears of "Mozilla Mobile Browser.. WHO?"
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jejones3141 14y ago
This just confirms for me that I did the right thing in not choosing Apple.
dandman1 14y ago
Would Cydia be an option? Mozilla always brandish themselves and the rebels of the web. This could be a fantastic move for them.
- saurik 14y ago
  Yeah, I am obviously biased, but I consider this a stupid way for them to play this politically... it isn't like Apple wants them, so picking up their toys and going home is just giving Apple exactly what Apple wants. A much better response would be "ok, we are going to make users want us do bad you have no choice but to let us in", and that's not going to happen with their current strategy, but is easily see-able if they cause a nudge in the numbers of the already large jailbreak community.
dandman1 14y ago
Would Cydia be an option? Mozilla always brandish themselves and the rebels of the web. This could be a fantastic move for them.
coldtea 14y ago
>Mozilla says no plans to return to iOS until Apple removes restrictions Apple says: don't let the door hit you on your way out.
pifflesnort 14y ago
So is Mozilla going to let us implement JIT and performant JS runtimes with alternative browsers on Firefox OS? As I understand it -- like Apple -- they going to sandbox apps. In Mozilla's case, there are even more restrictions due to their forcing developers to target only the browser's VM, rather than running as native code.
- ibotty 14y ago
  you cannot compare this. for b2g apps the browser is the os. so you will only be able to provide a different shell to the browser if you so desire. firefox os is not going to be the something you can extend in any way. that's a design goal.
  - pifflesnort 14y ago
    This creates a two-tier caste system that separates out 'platform developers' from 'app developers'. In this system, something like Firefox could never emerge in the first place. All language, runtime, VM, and similar innovation could only come from Mozilla themselves.
adjwilli 14y ago
I'm not sure Mozilla really has the clout with its mobile browser to make much of a difference for Apple. If anything, Mozilla building an open-source mobile OS will help Apple by dividing the Android's "open-source hacker" user base.

55 points by booruguru 14y ago

Not saying I don't respect the decision and I definitely side with Mozilla here, but > We won't build a competing product on your platform until you make it easier for us to compete! Yeah I'm sure Apple is going to get right on that. All the negative press from their shenanigans these years has really changed their attitude thusfar.

mtgx 14y ago
I'm ok with Mozilla's stance on this. I'd be ok with them raising anti-trust issues over this at DoJ, too.
- rgbrenner 14y ago
  iOS is at 35-40% marketshare.. so there's no chance of an anti-trust suit working. Mozilla would just be wasting resources by attempting it at this point.
  - anonymfus 14y ago
    Depends on market definition. It's around 50% of tablet sales in USA. And it was like 90% soon after start of iPad sales.
coldtea 14y ago
>Yeah I'm sure Apple is going to get right on that. All the negative press from their shenanigans these years has really changed their attitude thusfar. Yes, it had. The negative press regarding the restriction to the "languages used for iOS development" had them revise that. The negative press around the iOS acceptance process has them make several changes to the whole process. Even in specific app instances, they have reconsidered inclusion etc after some negative press. And they have responded to the negative press about the iOS Maps and the antenna thing. There are other such examples. So this picture that Apple "never changes its ways" is just not true.

atirip 14y ago

And we are going to have Chrome on Firefox OS when?

mtgx 14y ago
That wouldn't be much different than asking if you can use Chrome inside the PC Firefox. When the browser is the OS itself, then you can't ask for that.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  Like Google Chrome Frame does in Internet Explorer, you mean? I would like for that to be available on other browsers too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_Frame http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_Frame
kryptiskt 14y ago
You can build it anytime you want. It doesn't make any sense, though.
- jbk 14y ago
  How can you build it without native code?
diggan 14y ago
If you want to build a browser in a browser, it's just a matter of time. But that feels kind of unnecessary.
- ithkuil 14y ago
  Far from unnecessary. If your mobile platform is defined in terms of HTML5, it's easy to mix up the layer of mobile platform with the layer of browser user experience. The think that probably couldn't technically happen is to install chrome and run firefox OS apps on top of the chrome engine, but that's a completely different issue. (I wrote "probably" because, well, we've seen all kind of hacks and many impossible things will be made)

blibble 14y ago

guess they won't be returning to iOS then...

kaolinite 14y ago

All they're doing there is making their browser less relevant on the desktop. It's an expectation now that your phone and desktop should stay synced so that article you were reading on your phone is right there on your desktop too, and that bookmark you saved on your desktop is available whilst you're on the bus - this is just going to cripple Firefox further.

mhurron 14y ago
Keeping bookmarks in sync between Mobile Safari, Safari and Firefox could be done without Mozilla having to create a Firefox that is just a reskinning of Safari on iOS.
bdisraeli 14y ago
Not all Smartphone users are iPhone users.[1] I use Firefox for Android as my primary mobile browser and am mostly pretty happy with it (I stay on the Beta channel so occasionally there are stability problems). In addition, Mozilla will soon have an entire mobile OS[2] based on their browser. HN always seem quick to jump on the whole "Firefox is dying" meme, but Firefox still seems to to have about 20% market share in most usage reports I've seen[3][4]. I think it's great to see the Mozilla Foundation continue to standup for their principles. [1] http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2335616 http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2335616 [2] http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/partners/ http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/partners/ [3] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/chrome-hits-17-month-low-windows-8-still-only-creeping-upward/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/chrome... [4] http://gs.statcounter.com/ http://gs.statcounter.com/
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  "Not all Smartphone users are iPhone users." Not all mobile computing devices are smartphones. If you add tablets and PMPs to the mix, iOS has quite a presence. "Firefox still seems to to have about 20% market share" If 20% is enough to be called a major player (and I think it does), then surely you agree it's hard to ignore iOS.
  - 14y ago

niggler 14y ago

"Rosenblatt queried the audience to find out how many people were iOS users, and a majority of hands went up. By contrast, when he asked how many of them were suffering, just a few hands surfaced." Do people expect a full browser in Firefox for iOS or a skin atop the UIWebView? If its the latter (which, as I understand it, is what Chrome for iOS is) then is Firefox for iOS really important on any level?

objclxt 14y ago
Chrome for iOS is a little bit more than a skin on top of a UIWebView - the entire Chromium networking stack has been ported over. The upshot of this is that Chrome for iOS supports SPDY, whilst Mobile Safari doesn't. My understanding is that WebRTC should be going into the iOS Chrome build at some point in the future as well. A UIWebView is used for rendering, but there's a lot more Chrome code in that app than you might at first think.
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  Eh, the renderer is the most important part of a browser by far. It's where all of the user-facing innovation happens.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - fzzzy 14y ago
    You don't think the JIT is an important part of a browser?
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      Yeah, you're right, the JS engine as well a the renderer are about equally important. But I was trying to fight off the notion that Chrome for iOS is much more than a skin because it has its own network stack. It's a little more than skin, but the most important bits are off limits.

Tloewald 14y ago

Firefox was on iOS? It's only available by turning allowing "dangerous" apps on kindle (not via the kindle store) and I see it's in Google Play but wasn't for quite a while. I love these "open" platforms. Now that VP8 is licensed by MPEG-LA I guess it's time for Firefox to drop support for it. Oh, and I'd like Firefox to take the same approach to fonts — don't display anything in proprietary fonts.

Samuel_Michon 14y ago
Mozilla had an app named 'Firefox Home' in the App Store. It allowed you to view your desktop Firefox bookmarks, tabs, and history - which it would then display in a regular webview. Mozilla pulled the app last year. http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/01/mozilla-pulls-firefox-home-from-the-ios-app-store-posts-source/ http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/01/mozilla-pulls-firefox-hom...
myko 14y ago
> I see it's in Google Play but wasn't for quite a while. I love these "open" platforms. What are you getting at here? It was available on Google Play as soon as Mozilla had it ready.
- fpgeek 14y ago
  Indeed. In fact, it was ready so long ago that Firefox was in the Android Market for almost a year.
  - Tloewald 14y ago
    I've guess I've just been horribly misled by going into Google Play on my Nexus 7 (which I preordered) and searching for Firefox.
    - myko 14y ago
      You don't see Firefox available on your Nexus 7? Have you modded it in any way? Firefox works fine on the Nexus 7. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.firefox https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.fi... and the beta: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.firefox_beta https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.fi...

kayoone 14y ago

Apple is doing the same things today with safari on iOS that MS did with IE back in the Day.

bjelkeman-again 14y ago
Not a good comparison. IE's core wasn't available open source, as WebKit is, so others could build on the rendering engine. I agree that iOS should be open for other browsers though.
- kayoone 14y ago
  The core being open source does not change the user experience though. Apple locked Safari as the default browser.
- untog 14y ago
  In this context, I don't see how that's relevant. Whether IE was open source or not wasn't relevant to them bundling it with the OS to establish a dominant market position.
- Jare 14y ago
  A stark reminder that "Open Source" and "free as in freedom" do not necessarily go hand in hand.
- scholia 14y ago
  IE's rendering engine wasn't open source but other browser developers were welcome to use it. The award-winning Maxthon browser did that well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxthon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxthon
w1ntermute 14y ago
I'd say it's much worse (what Apple is doing), since there's no way to change the default browser.
- yxhuvud 14y ago

lttlrck 14y ago

Return? Never actually noticed they were there. Google seem to have managed well enough on iOS, Mozilla could be missing out.

mtgx 14y ago
Chrome is based on Webkit, so the changes weren't that major for them. But they still suffer by not being able to use V8, and not being able to use Nitro with JIT either.

bartl 14y ago

I don't see how Apple's attitude here is any better than Microsoft's stand regarding browsers on Windows, a few years ago, and for which they got a huge fine in Europe. If anything, Apple's attitude ("The company prevents its users from making any other application the default browser") is worse.

Samuel_Michon 14y ago
Microsoft got a fine for breaking its promise to offer consumers using its Windows system a choice of rival internet browsers (the browser choice screen). That offer was made by Microsoft to stave off an investigation by the EU in the bundling of Internet Explorer with Windows. That possible investigation was requested in light of earlier convictions of Microsoft for abusing its dominant position in the market (and earlier broken promises). Apple has no such dominant position in the market, nor has it ever been fined for abusing it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/mar/06/mirosoft-eu-fine-antitrust-european-commission http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/mar/06/mirosoft-eu... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_compet...
- fulafel 14y ago
  Apple's tablet market share is big enough to qualify.
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    IANAL, but according to Wikipedia, it comes down to 'market definition' [1]. The computer market as a whole was recognized to be a 'relevant market', in which Microsoft was found to have a dominant position [2]. It's up to lawyers and economists to decide whether the current tablet offerings make up a market in that sense, separate from the cell phone market or the computer market. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_definition [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law#Dominance_and_monopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law#...

cbeach 14y ago

I'm weeping tears of "Mozilla Mobile Browser.. WHO?"

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

jejones3141 14y ago

This just confirms for me that I did the right thing in not choosing Apple.

dandman1 14y ago

Would Cydia be an option? Mozilla always brandish themselves and the rebels of the web. This could be a fantastic move for them.

saurik 14y ago
Yeah, I am obviously biased, but I consider this a stupid way for them to play this politically... it isn't like Apple wants them, so picking up their toys and going home is just giving Apple exactly what Apple wants. A much better response would be "ok, we are going to make users want us do bad you have no choice but to let us in", and that's not going to happen with their current strategy, but is easily see-able if they cause a nudge in the numbers of the already large jailbreak community.

dandman1 14y ago

Would Cydia be an option? Mozilla always brandish themselves and the rebels of the web. This could be a fantastic move for them.

coldtea 14y ago

>Mozilla says no plans to return to iOS until Apple removes restrictions Apple says: don't let the door hit you on your way out.

pifflesnort 14y ago

So is Mozilla going to let us implement JIT and performant JS runtimes with alternative browsers on Firefox OS? As I understand it -- like Apple -- they going to sandbox apps. In Mozilla's case, there are even more restrictions due to their forcing developers to target only the browser's VM, rather than running as native code.

ibotty 14y ago
you cannot compare this. for b2g apps the browser is the os. so you will only be able to provide a different shell to the browser if you so desire. firefox os is not going to be the something you can extend in any way. that's a design goal.
- pifflesnort 14y ago
  This creates a two-tier caste system that separates out 'platform developers' from 'app developers'. In this system, something like Firefox could never emerge in the first place. All language, runtime, VM, and similar innovation could only come from Mozilla themselves.

adjwilli 14y ago

I'm not sure Mozilla really has the clout with its mobile browser to make much of a difference for Apple. If anything, Mozilla building an open-source mobile OS will help Apple by dividing the Android's "open-source hacker" user base.