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> it seems that America still has the edge. Please don't mince words about freedom in China, a brutally repressive state: It doesn't deserve it. * You can't l

> it seems that America still has the edge. Please don't mince words about freedom in China, a brutally repressive state: It doesn't deserve it. * You can't leave your village without a pass * You can't have more than one kid * No freedom of expression * Oh, and that ongoing massacre in Tibet

stcredzero 18y ago
As for Tibet, it is quite similar to what we did to the Native Americans, the Chinese are just doing it more quickly.
- nutmeg 18y ago
  That doesn't make it any more right
  - randallsquared 18y ago
    I think he was trying to say it wasn't more wrong, which carries a different connotation.
- jacoblyles 18y ago
  I think the Chinese view the Tibetan mission as one of colonization and modernization, while violently putting down groups opposed to Chinese rule. Their internal media, at least, views it as a humanitarian mission, not genocide. Don't know who's right. Could anyone point out information that China's goal is the elimination of the Tibetan people, instead of rule over them? Seems like they could have finished by now if they just wanted to kill them all.
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    There were also "humanitarian" justifications with the Native American situation.
    - jacoblyles 18y ago
      Sure. I'm just asking for some factual clarification here. Is the point of the Chinese mission to rule Tibetans, or to kill them all? Neither is a nice thing to do, but there is a difference in degree of how mean they are.
      - stcredzero 18y ago
        It's not just to rule, but also to obliterate their "inferior" culture. So we Americans did more killing, ideologically, we aren't much different.
  - asciilifeform 18y ago
    I suggest reading about how the Tibetans ran their country before the Chinese invasion.
cglee 18y ago
* I've never heard of the village pass restriction. * You can have more than one kid - you have to pay a fine though. Also, the restriction doesn't apply to ethnic minorities or farmers. * You cannot organize dissenting political views. You can express yourself creatively, artistically, etc all you want. Check out Beijing's 798 district: http://www.798space.com http://www.798space.com (one of my favorite places). * It's not an "ongoing massacre". It may be oppression, racism, discrimination, segregation, confining a people to internment or a reservation - but to describe it as an active massacre is inaccurate.
- erlanger 18y ago
  * Read about it. I will post some sources here ASAP. * Is that any less perverse? * The right to organize with other dissenters is critical in the fight for freedom. - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/24/AR2009032400742.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032000175.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032000175.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/17/AR2009031700017.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/10/AR2009031003725.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... Those are from the past month in the Post alone. * Do you mean to say that scores of Tibetan protesters were not beaten and/or shot dead in the months leading up to the Olympics? Because that's news to me.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
    - erlanger 18y ago
      > Your original post was racist, Because I totally applied my criticism to a people rather than a national government, right? Maybe you're the old-world type that equates nations with races.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
catz 18y ago
> * You can't leave your village without a pass There are valid practical reasons for this. Infrastructure such as roads, hospitals, schools, etc... can simply not cater for a massive influx of people from rural areas. The alternative to this is probably giant slum cities that surround every major city (as what happens in other parts of the world). > * You can't have more than one kid Although this is horrible - and things such as forced abortions is heretic there are good reasons for this. There are huge overpopulation problems in China. Culturally many people are also inclined to get more children (since children traditionally cared for parents and were an old fashioned "retirement plan"). I would go further and argue that the rapid increase in population is responsible for much of Africa's non-development. > * No freedom of expression Between personal freedom and economic freedom I would prefer economic freedom. Of course China is not a democracy with all the nice associated things (freedom of expression, etc...). However, if China were a democracy it would probably have succumbed to a kleptocratic leftist rule - as 95% of other 3rd world countries.

stcredzero 18y ago

As for Tibet, it is quite similar to what we did to the Native Americans, the Chinese are just doing it more quickly.

nutmeg 18y ago
That doesn't make it any more right
- randallsquared 18y ago
  I think he was trying to say it wasn't more wrong, which carries a different connotation.
jacoblyles 18y ago
I think the Chinese view the Tibetan mission as one of colonization and modernization, while violently putting down groups opposed to Chinese rule. Their internal media, at least, views it as a humanitarian mission, not genocide. Don't know who's right. Could anyone point out information that China's goal is the elimination of the Tibetan people, instead of rule over them? Seems like they could have finished by now if they just wanted to kill them all.
- stcredzero 18y ago
  There were also "humanitarian" justifications with the Native American situation.
  - jacoblyles 18y ago
    Sure. I'm just asking for some factual clarification here. Is the point of the Chinese mission to rule Tibetans, or to kill them all? Neither is a nice thing to do, but there is a difference in degree of how mean they are.
    - stcredzero 18y ago
      It's not just to rule, but also to obliterate their "inferior" culture. So we Americans did more killing, ideologically, we aren't much different.
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  I suggest reading about how the Tibetans ran their country before the Chinese invasion.

cglee 18y ago

* I've never heard of the village pass restriction. * You can have more than one kid - you have to pay a fine though. Also, the restriction doesn't apply to ethnic minorities or farmers. * You cannot organize dissenting political views. You can express yourself creatively, artistically, etc all you want. Check out Beijing's 798 district: http://www.798space.com http://www.798space.com (one of my favorite places). * It's not an "ongoing massacre". It may be oppression, racism, discrimination, segregation, confining a people to internment or a reservation - but to describe it as an active massacre is inaccurate.

erlanger 18y ago
* Read about it. I will post some sources here ASAP. * Is that any less perverse? * The right to organize with other dissenters is critical in the fight for freedom. - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/24/AR2009032400742.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032000175.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032000175.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/17/AR2009031700017.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/10/AR2009031003725.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03... Those are from the past month in the Post alone. * Do you mean to say that scores of Tibetan protesters were not beaten and/or shot dead in the months leading up to the Olympics? Because that's news to me.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
  - erlanger 18y ago
    > Your original post was racist, Because I totally applied my criticism to a people rather than a national government, right? Maybe you're the old-world type that equates nations with races.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

catz 18y ago

> * You can't leave your village without a pass There are valid practical reasons for this. Infrastructure such as roads, hospitals, schools, etc... can simply not cater for a massive influx of people from rural areas. The alternative to this is probably giant slum cities that surround every major city (as what happens in other parts of the world). > * You can't have more than one kid Although this is horrible - and things such as forced abortions is heretic there are good reasons for this. There are huge overpopulation problems in China. Culturally many people are also inclined to get more children (since children traditionally cared for parents and were an old fashioned "retirement plan"). I would go further and argue that the rapid increase in population is responsible for much of Africa's non-development. > * No freedom of expression Between personal freedom and economic freedom I would prefer economic freedom. Of course China is not a democracy with all the nice associated things (freedom of expression, etc...). However, if China were a democracy it would probably have succumbed to a kleptocratic leftist rule - as 95% of other 3rd world countries.