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> 1. high male/female ratio + blind meritocracy => self-sustaining male culture Based on what, the assumption that women are self-selecting against wanting to

> 1. high male/female ratio + blind meritocracy => self-sustaining male culture Based on what, the assumption that women are self-selecting against wanting to be programmers due to it being a male dominated profession? In that case, the action should be taken to promote CS education and inclusion at the preparatory level. Creating a bias away from the meritocracy at the hiring stage is still discriminatory and results in an overall lower skill level. My personal problem with this is that you're looking at it on a generational scale. You're basically telling multiple generations of men that it's okay for them to be discriminated against for their entire life due to something that their fathers or grandfathers did. That's not 'equality' for them.

klibertp 14y ago
"Creating a bias [...] results in an overall lower skill level" Yes, but again, that is meant a only a temporary solution; as something that will correct the abnormal situation we have now and then will go away. "You're basically telling multiple generations of men that it's okay for them to be discriminated against for their entire life due to something that their fathers or grandfathers did" Isn't that ok? Every single time I think about this issue I feel guilty as hell just for being male. Every time I see a cultural norm that discriminates women I feel a bit responsible for it - and these bits accumulate quickly. I'm ready to be discriminated against to some extent if it's going to help; it's not because I want someone to make effort in my place but because I know that my effort alone is not sufficient. Also, multiple generations is not that long a time. Twenty, maybe thirty years and it would be over - society evolves quite fast nowadays, we don't need to wait for centuries - like women had to.
- LockeWatts 14y ago
  >Isn't that ok? No, why in the hell would that be okay? What makes one act of discrimination better than the other? >Every single time I think about this issue I feel guilty as hell just for being male. Every time I see a cultural norm that discriminates women I feel a bit responsible for it - and these bits accumulate quickly. I'm ready to be discriminated against to some extent if it's going to help; it's not because I want someone to make effort in my place but because I know that my effort alone is not sufficient. Congratulations, your internalization of guilt and willingness to be discriminated against does not extend to me, and you have no right to tell me that it should. I'm not responsible for the crap that happened in the past, and I'm not okay with being told that I should bear the consequences of poor decisions made before my time. >Also, multiple generations is not that long a time. Twenty, maybe thirty years and it would be over - society evolves quite fast nowadays, we don't need to wait for centuries - like women had to. Twenty or thirty years is the prime working window of my life. It's difficult enough, thanks.
  - klibertp 14y ago
    > What makes one act of discrimination better than the other? Discrimination is bad for some and good for others, always. It's better if it's good for those oppressed and worse if it's making that oppression grow. It's still bad, though, and so it should be only temporary. > Congratulations, your internalization of guilt and willingness to be discriminated against does not extend to me, and you have no right to tell me that it should. Hey, relax! I'm not telling you that you should feel in any particular way, am I? I was saying how I feel personally, nothing more. > I'm not responsible for the crap that happened in the past, and I'm not okay with being told that I should bear the consequences of poor decisions made before my time. Um, the problem here is that - if you are a white male - you are still benefiting from those decisions. You may say that you have never actively did anything against any woman or against an idea of equality - and I believe you - but you still got a job because of inequalities created in the past. I'm not telling you that you're abilities alone weren't sufficient! But they might have been insufficient if you just happened to be a woman... > Twenty or thirty years is the prime working window of my life. It's difficult enough, thanks. I understand what you feel and I'm too scared that it will hit me. I'm not happy about it in the least. But then I think that, hey, there are women out there that are doing really well, despite all the problems they have. I also believe that I'm in every way as capable as these women and so I believe that I would still be alright. I might not, of course, that's a risk, but there are many risky things in life and I think that probability of me or you being personally hit by some pro-equality solutions is much lower than us being hit by global recession... or by a meteorite tomorrow. And if the risk is higher and you don't like it - we can negotiate. We can think of a way of reducing this risk for you while still doing some good. But the risk will be there, I can't deny this, and I have no other answer for this other that that I believe it needs to be done. Something needs to be done.
    - im3w1l 14y ago
      >Hey, relax! You are trying to oppress me. I will not relax.

klibertp 14y ago

"Creating a bias [...] results in an overall lower skill level" Yes, but again, that is meant a only a temporary solution; as something that will correct the abnormal situation we have now and then will go away. "You're basically telling multiple generations of men that it's okay for them to be discriminated against for their entire life due to something that their fathers or grandfathers did" Isn't that ok? Every single time I think about this issue I feel guilty as hell just for being male. Every time I see a cultural norm that discriminates women I feel a bit responsible for it - and these bits accumulate quickly. I'm ready to be discriminated against to some extent if it's going to help; it's not because I want someone to make effort in my place but because I know that my effort alone is not sufficient. Also, multiple generations is not that long a time. Twenty, maybe thirty years and it would be over - society evolves quite fast nowadays, we don't need to wait for centuries - like women had to.

LockeWatts 14y ago
>Isn't that ok? No, why in the hell would that be okay? What makes one act of discrimination better than the other? >Every single time I think about this issue I feel guilty as hell just for being male. Every time I see a cultural norm that discriminates women I feel a bit responsible for it - and these bits accumulate quickly. I'm ready to be discriminated against to some extent if it's going to help; it's not because I want someone to make effort in my place but because I know that my effort alone is not sufficient. Congratulations, your internalization of guilt and willingness to be discriminated against does not extend to me, and you have no right to tell me that it should. I'm not responsible for the crap that happened in the past, and I'm not okay with being told that I should bear the consequences of poor decisions made before my time. >Also, multiple generations is not that long a time. Twenty, maybe thirty years and it would be over - society evolves quite fast nowadays, we don't need to wait for centuries - like women had to. Twenty or thirty years is the prime working window of my life. It's difficult enough, thanks.
- klibertp 14y ago
  > What makes one act of discrimination better than the other? Discrimination is bad for some and good for others, always. It's better if it's good for those oppressed and worse if it's making that oppression grow. It's still bad, though, and so it should be only temporary. > Congratulations, your internalization of guilt and willingness to be discriminated against does not extend to me, and you have no right to tell me that it should. Hey, relax! I'm not telling you that you should feel in any particular way, am I? I was saying how I feel personally, nothing more. > I'm not responsible for the crap that happened in the past, and I'm not okay with being told that I should bear the consequences of poor decisions made before my time. Um, the problem here is that - if you are a white male - you are still benefiting from those decisions. You may say that you have never actively did anything against any woman or against an idea of equality - and I believe you - but you still got a job because of inequalities created in the past. I'm not telling you that you're abilities alone weren't sufficient! But they might have been insufficient if you just happened to be a woman... > Twenty or thirty years is the prime working window of my life. It's difficult enough, thanks. I understand what you feel and I'm too scared that it will hit me. I'm not happy about it in the least. But then I think that, hey, there are women out there that are doing really well, despite all the problems they have. I also believe that I'm in every way as capable as these women and so I believe that I would still be alright. I might not, of course, that's a risk, but there are many risky things in life and I think that probability of me or you being personally hit by some pro-equality solutions is much lower than us being hit by global recession... or by a meteorite tomorrow. And if the risk is higher and you don't like it - we can negotiate. We can think of a way of reducing this risk for you while still doing some good. But the risk will be there, I can't deny this, and I have no other answer for this other that that I believe it needs to be done. Something needs to be done.
  - im3w1l 14y ago
    >Hey, relax! You are trying to oppress me. I will not relax.