6 ms·
>Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry con
by jimzvz 14y ago
>Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on
Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry consists largely of "Girl-centric CS activities" then they will immediately wonder why they need such special treatment. People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.
- snowwrestler 14y agoIf you're right, what is the worst that could happen? That girls might opt out of pursuing CS? Well that is already the situation now. It's easy to poke theoretical holes in any proposed change...but the status quo should not get a pass just because we're used to it.
- jimzvz 14y agoThe problem is that it is using discrimination to fight discrimination. What about the boy who can't afford the tuition for the computer science course, his best friend, a girl who he has just introduced to programming, gets a bursary to the course just because she is female? The boy feels that he is not wanted in the cs community because of this discrimination so he begins to pursue something different and the girl feels that she was given an unfair advantage over her friend and does not want to ruin the relationship so she pulls out of the course. Anything like this that isn't based on merit or interest can be pretty devastating.
- hackinthebochs 14y agoCan we please let the women speak for themselves? I absolutely abhor when white people tell me that as a black person I should not want scholarships/education programs/tutoring/etc geared specifically towards people of my background.
- jimzvz 14y agoAre you suggesting that we cannot debate this issue unless we are female? Because, if so, then you need to copy and paste your comment on 90% of the comments in this thread including your own. (I assume you are not a women because you said "Can WE please let the women speak for themselves?") Or are you suggesting that us males are only not allowed to debate when we believe that special treatment of women is actually detrimental to them and everyone else?
- hackinthebochs 14y agoI am suggesting we not make self-serving assertions about how women should feel. There is debating and then there is putting words in other people's mouths that are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. If women themselves are not making this type of argument, men have no place in making it on their behalf.
- LockeWatts 14y agoHow about we argue instead that discriminating is wrong, and we shouldn't actively promote it.
- hackinthebochs 14y agoRacism, sexism, etc are necessarily wrong. However, discrimination is not necessarily wrong. Whether its wrong depends on the context and the motivations. I submit that this is a valid form of "discrimination".
- jimzvz 14y agoSexism is discrimination based on sex. Please look up the definition of sexism. No, it does not depend on the motivation or context, everyone who discriminates believes that their motives justify it but they don't. Your sexism is no different from anyone else's.
- hackinthebochs 14y agoSure, under the most simplistic definition devoid of any cultural context or connotation. But if you have to prune all meaning from the word to prove your point then perhaps your point is rather weak to begin with. To put it another way: if your definition of sexism means that women-centric events designed to foster interest in an otherwise underrepresented field is considered sexist, then its your definition that is faulty. Here's a definition that doesn't strip the salient context from it (dictionary.com) 1.attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. 2.discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. It's amazing how these discussions always devolve into cherry-picking definitions and parsing language like a machine to prove respective points. If you have to resort to that, then just bow out gracefully as you are missing the point of the discussion altogether.
- ahoyhere 14y agoI'm a woman and when I say such things, women either A) (subtly) turn away from me and act like I'm the Crazy Racist Uncle that everybody pretends doesn't exist, or B) tell me to shut up. But the fact is, there's no evidence that these endeavors help. None at all. There's plenty of evidence that they hurt -- stereotype threat and the implication that the OP gave, which is that special treatment indicates a special lack. Note that we're not talking about scholarships here.
- hackinthebochs 14y agoShow me the evidence that they hurt. And extrapolating or supposing stereotype threat is not evidence. The fact is these are mostly private people or private groups that put on these efforts. They need no "proof" that they work. The fact that women show up to these things is enough proof as far as they are concerned. If you want to completely eliminate these events then its up to you to show that they are actively harmful.
- Anechoic 14y agoPeople do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause. Really? Because self-segregation is pretty obvious in any number of contexts.