4 ms·

The attitudes in this thread seem a little disturbing to me. Let me illustrate with a different example: There are a number of other fields that are consistent

by ufmace 14y ago

The attitudes in this thread seem a little disturbing to me. Let me illustrate with a different example: There are a number of other fields that are consistently dominated by women in the way that programming and CS are by men. Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields? Is there some "old-girls club" that's keeping the men out? Do we need to set up some affirmative action programs at employers, outreach programs to men in high school and college, men-only nurse clubs, etc? It doesn't happen, because nobody seems to care. Just try and see how much googling it takes to even find out what the actual gender ratios in those professions are. After a little looking around, I found that, according to one article, teaching is 67-86% female, and according to Wikipedia, nursing in the US is 94.6% female (!). There are a lot of other fields where men are heavily dominant. Firefighters, soldiers, police, etc. I don't see anywhere near the level of pressure to bring women into these fields as there is for CS/Programming. The whole CS/Programming field is just another field heavily dominated by a particular gender. Why is it different or more special than any of these other fields? Why does this field need specific efforts to address the gender ratio? Why is this a Problem that demands all sorts of high-level money and attention to address? I have nothing against any person trying to get into any field they care to. Programming can be a tough field, but if a woman, or anybody else, has the interest, brains, and drive, then more power to 'em. Anyone who tells a girl that they shouldn't get into the field because girls can't do it or it isn't feminine is a jerk and should be ignored, and should be sacked if they take action to block her progress. So the gender ratio in CS/Programming is heavily male-biased. So what? Maybe women just don't tend to be interested in it. I don't see this as a problem that we need to work on solving. Let people do what they want to do, and if that leads to a gender imbalance in some fields, that's okay.

eropple 14y ago
> Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing Have you stopped to consider that these two (in particular) might be true but you're not in the circles that talk about it? There's significant demand for male elementary school teachers[1] and while I can't find with a couple of quick Google searches, friends of mine who work in the medical field say that there's a drive to get more male nurses because male patients generally seem more comfortable around male nurses. > Firefighters, soldiers, police, etc. I don't see anywhere near the level of pressure to bring women into these fields as there is for CS/Programming. I can't speak to firefighters or police (though cursory Googling for the latter seems to indicate nontrivial demand), but the goal of more female enlistment in the military has been ongoing for quite some time. And in any case, that there may not be such a push for more women in field X does not imply that that is the desired state of affairs in that field--it states only that it's not happening right now. It is happening in software development. And you're on Hacker News: it trends toward software developers. There's going to be more bits perturbed on the topic than regarding firefighters or police. [1] - http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage
AdrianRossouw 14y ago
Being a male elementary school teacher can be a very dangerous career choice in the era of "stranger danger" and the like. And I think that the conversation focuses on programming here, but there is a genuine issue with girls being disinterested in STEM careers. There's a chance that the world is missing out on the next female einstein, because she became a nurse instead of being encouraged to follow her dreams.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
Anechoic 14y ago
* Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields?* There are efforts: http://www.menteach.org/ http://www.menteach.org/ http://www.malenursemagazine.com/ http://www.malenursemagazine.com/ http://www.minoritynurse.com/men-nursing/recruiting-men-nursing-school http://www.minoritynurse.com/men-nursing/recruiting-men-nurs... You're not looking hard enough. (this was by no means a comprehensive search, the above links were found with ~45 secs of Googling).
zallen 14y ago
1. The topic isn't about men's participation in other fields; it's about women's participation in this field. The 'what about men?' argument is something that you see a lot in many spaces where women's rights and inclusion is discussed, and it's a derailment from the point. We're not discussing men's non-traditional career choices, and if we were, the barriers and issues to be discussed would be very different. That's not to say that isn't an interesting topic, but the discussion turning to be about men happens in so many discussions about women and equality that it's become a cliche (queue larger point about society in general). What you can do is ask what men, who share an interest in an egalitarian society, can do to help women in this instance. 2. You probably don't mean to, but you're displaying a lot of privilege here (in the technical sense, not pejorative): by that I mean you're making an unstated assumption that the barriers that women face getting into the field are the same as what you faced, and therefore that, given those small and inconsequential barriers, they just must not be interested -- if they were it would be as easy for them as it was for you! Sorry to say that it's not that simple, and men's and women's experiences of tech and education and society just aren't the same, for the most part, and for the most part it's women who have the lower-quality experience.

by ufmace 14y ago

eropple 14y ago

> Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing Have you stopped to consider that these two (in particular) might be true but you're not in the circles that talk about it? There's significant demand for male elementary school teachers[1] and while I can't find with a couple of quick Google searches, friends of mine who work in the medical field say that there's a drive to get more male nurses because male patients generally seem more comfortable around male nurses. > Firefighters, soldiers, police, etc. I don't see anywhere near the level of pressure to bring women into these fields as there is for CS/Programming. I can't speak to firefighters or police (though cursory Googling for the latter seems to indicate nontrivial demand), but the goal of more female enlistment in the military has been ongoing for quite some time. And in any case, that there may not be such a push for more women in field X does not imply that that is the desired state of affairs in that field--it states only that it's not happening right now. It is happening in software development. And you're on Hacker News: it trends toward software developers. There's going to be more bits perturbed on the topic than regarding firefighters or police. [1] - http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage

AdrianRossouw 14y ago

Being a male elementary school teacher can be a very dangerous career choice in the era of "stranger danger" and the like. And I think that the conversation focuses on programming here, but there is a genuine issue with girls being disinterested in STEM careers. There's a chance that the world is missing out on the next female einstein, because she became a nurse instead of being encouraged to follow her dreams.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

Anechoic 14y ago

* Teaching, especially at the elementary-school level and younger, nursing, HR, administrative assistants, and others. Why is there no effort to bring more men into these fields?* There are efforts: http://www.menteach.org/ http://www.menteach.org/ http://www.malenursemagazine.com/ http://www.malenursemagazine.com/ http://www.minoritynurse.com/men-nursing/recruiting-men-nursing-school http://www.minoritynurse.com/men-nursing/recruiting-men-nurs... You're not looking hard enough. (this was by no means a comprehensive search, the above links were found with ~45 secs of Googling).

zallen 14y ago

1. The topic isn't about men's participation in other fields; it's about women's participation in this field. The 'what about men?' argument is something that you see a lot in many spaces where women's rights and inclusion is discussed, and it's a derailment from the point. We're not discussing men's non-traditional career choices, and if we were, the barriers and issues to be discussed would be very different. That's not to say that isn't an interesting topic, but the discussion turning to be about men happens in so many discussions about women and equality that it's become a cliche (queue larger point about society in general). What you can do is ask what men, who share an interest in an egalitarian society, can do to help women in this instance. 2. You probably don't mean to, but you're displaying a lot of privilege here (in the technical sense, not pejorative): by that I mean you're making an unstated assumption that the barriers that women face getting into the field are the same as what you faced, and therefore that, given those small and inconsequential barriers, they just must not be interested -- if they were it would be as easy for them as it was for you! Sorry to say that it's not that simple, and men's and women's experiences of tech and education and society just aren't the same, for the most part, and for the most part it's women who have the lower-quality experience.