11 ms·

No, for a number of reasons. One reason for American dominance after WWII was that so much of Europe's manufacturing capability was destroyed by war. America

No, for a number of reasons. One reason for American dominance after WWII was that so much of Europe's manufacturing capability was destroyed by war. America has (about) the same manufacturing base as 2 years ago. Another is that the strength of American industry was fed by the migration of farmers' sons and daughters into the cities. While American farmers may have been cash-poor, they had a lot of practical skills that were passed on to the kids that went to the city, such as fixing farm implements (requires mechanical aptitude). Finally there is the question of the relative amount of freedom - not having been to China, I don't know the "full story" but it seems that America still has the edge.

biohacker42 18y ago
I'm guessing the Chinese farmers also have a lot of practical skills. But other then that you're right, and lets not forget the huge brain drain into America over the years. Attracted both by the economy but also by the level of freedom. Not just democratic freedom, but also the freedom to not stand out just because you look different.
- stcredzero 18y ago
  The last is indeed significant. Something that the rise of reality TV has shown us, is that humiliation is an American pastime. Asian men often get to see this hidden sadistic side of mainstream North American society. I just turned 40 at the end of last year, and I've been looking back at my life and reflecting on this more and more in recent weeks. The way that one ethnic group can talk about another when they think it's safe for them to voice what they're really thinking can be shocking. It makes me want to play around with hidden cameras and microphones.
- catz 18y ago
  > But other then that you're right, and lets not forget the huge brain drain into America over the years. This is true - and the brain drains are probably what made America great. Before and during WW2 some of smartest people in Europe (mostly Jewish) fled to America and they never went back. That is probably one of the reasons why the USA was off much better after WW2 than other countries. This continued over the years. But it can easily reverse - if situations in the home countries become more favourable or if the USA decreases the number of Visas...
erlanger 18y ago
> it seems that America still has the edge. Please don't mince words about freedom in China, a brutally repressive state: It doesn't deserve it. * You can't leave your village without a pass * You can't have more than one kid * No freedom of expression * Oh, and that ongoing massacre in Tibet
- stcredzero 18y ago
  As for Tibet, it is quite similar to what we did to the Native Americans, the Chinese are just doing it more quickly.
  - nutmeg 18y ago
    That doesn't make it any more right
    - randallsquared 18y ago
      I think he was trying to say it wasn't more wrong, which carries a different connotation.
  - jacoblyles 18y ago
    I think the Chinese view the Tibetan mission as one of colonization and modernization, while violently putting down groups opposed to Chinese rule. Their internal media, at least, views it as a humanitarian mission, not genocide. Don't know who's right. Could anyone point out information that China's goal is the elimination of the Tibetan people, instead of rule over them? Seems like they could have finished by now if they just wanted to kill them all.
    - stcredzero 18y ago
      There were also "humanitarian" justifications with the Native American situation.
      - jacoblyles 18y ago
bokonist 18y ago
In terms of economic freedom, China has the edge. The cardinal rule is, "you cannot write, read, or do anything that threatens the legitimacy of the party." That kind of limit on free speech certainly does not appeal to me, but I don't think it in anyway cripples the economy.
- tokenadult 18y ago
  I'm not sure I agree that China actually offers more economic freedom to most of its people than America does. Most people in China don't even have a formal legal right to move their residence to a new town. The cardinal rule is, "you cannot write, read, or do anything that threatens the legitimacy of the party." That kind of limit on free speech certainly does not appeal to me, but I don't think it in anyway cripples the economy. But this I very specifically disagree with. The ruling party of China intervenes in the economy in very many ways in China, and leaving criticism of the party off-limits in public discourse means that sound discussion of economic policy at a deep and detailed level can't happen. China has had a bubble economy over the last decade or more, but it's unclear this year how much of the bubble is popping, because the state-controlled media are not engaging in vigorous reporting about what is really happening to real estate projects invested in by local governments or many other government-intertwined economic projects. An economy thrives better with more transparency.
  - jhancock 18y ago
    I agree with you. But "sound discussion of economic policy at a deep and detailed level" does actually happen. People do openly talk about such things in China. The censorship is not that complete. Where there are pain points, you will find people shouting about it. You are correct that local media does not disclose the whole truth. But that's not too different than U.S. mainstream media. "An economy thrives better with more transparency." agreed!!!
  - bokonist 18y ago
    Both good points. Determining whether the U.S. or China has more economic freedom is difficult, because their ways of restricting freedom are so different. discourse means that sound discussion of economic policy at a deep and detailed level can't happen. It definitely happens among the elites, I once attended a workshop in Guangzhou about problems in urban planning. You can criticize the government's actions, you just cannot question its legitimacy. But even then you probably won't be jailed. Being an open supporter of democracy in China is like being an open racist in the U.S. You probably won't get jailed, but you will find your career not going so well. It is true you see far less policy debate in the popular press, but personally I'd have to be convinced that there is any link between the amount of popular debate over a certain issue and the quality of the eventual solution. Lack of transparency is always definitely an economic hindrance, no question there. It's a bad problem both in China and the U.S..
cowmoo 18y ago
Caution: Personal bias stemming as a Chinese-born U.S citizen. One reason for American dominance after WWII was that so much of Europe's manufacturing capability was destroyed by war. America has (about) the same manufacturing base as 2 years ago. Currently, lots of U.S manufacturing, save for defense-related projects have been outsourced elsewhere (i.e., GM/Ford cars are only 50%, 60% made in the U.S; GM cars sold in China, are often assembled and with many parts made in a GM-Shanghai joint-venture factories; Pratt & Whitney and GE Aircraft engines out-source their engine compressors to low-cost developing countries such as Poland, etc.). Perhaps what's even more alarming, is how many industrial and high-tech companies have out-sourced their R&D to China: Intel, AMD, United Technologies, GM, MSFT all have R&D centers in Shanghai or Beijing. So Chinese manufacturing, on both low-end and high-end, I would argue is booming. Another is the strength of American industry was fed by migration of farmers' sons and daughters into the cities .... they had a lot of practical skills See cities like Shenzhen and Wuxi. Actually, the bulk of Chinese growth is attributed to a major migration of farmers' sons and daughters from in-land China to the coastal cities' huge factory complex. This makes for China's low-end exports. As for having practical skills, China pumps a great deal of math/science/engineering graduates, more per capita than U.S - a good percentage of whom would then later pursue post-doc or graduate work in the U.S/Europe. So I would argue, that Chinese human capital is also booming. Finally there is the question of relative amount of freedom. In absolute terms, yes, U.S enjoys more political, social and economic freedom. But I would argue, that Westerner's tend to overestimate the "freedom" disparity between themselves and other "authoritative regimes." In another words, U.S, IMHO is not a pure meritocracy either (corporate personnel is often determined via social connections or pedigree; political candidates are often chosen by back-room deals). Yes, there is tremendous room for China to improve on its human rights and political autonomy; but the whole Western democratic ideal/Plato's Republic is just another manifestation of the European "holier than thou" attitude, left over the colonial times.
- jhancock 18y ago
  well said. As for your cautionary personal bias...from my experience, anyone that has lived in China can appreciate your position.. its not necessary to be of Chinese decent.

biohacker42 18y ago

I'm guessing the Chinese farmers also have a lot of practical skills. But other then that you're right, and lets not forget the huge brain drain into America over the years. Attracted both by the economy but also by the level of freedom. Not just democratic freedom, but also the freedom to not stand out just because you look different.

stcredzero 18y ago
The last is indeed significant. Something that the rise of reality TV has shown us, is that humiliation is an American pastime. Asian men often get to see this hidden sadistic side of mainstream North American society. I just turned 40 at the end of last year, and I've been looking back at my life and reflecting on this more and more in recent weeks. The way that one ethnic group can talk about another when they think it's safe for them to voice what they're really thinking can be shocking. It makes me want to play around with hidden cameras and microphones.
catz 18y ago
> But other then that you're right, and lets not forget the huge brain drain into America over the years. This is true - and the brain drains are probably what made America great. Before and during WW2 some of smartest people in Europe (mostly Jewish) fled to America and they never went back. That is probably one of the reasons why the USA was off much better after WW2 than other countries. This continued over the years. But it can easily reverse - if situations in the home countries become more favourable or if the USA decreases the number of Visas...

erlanger 18y ago

> it seems that America still has the edge. Please don't mince words about freedom in China, a brutally repressive state: It doesn't deserve it. * You can't leave your village without a pass * You can't have more than one kid * No freedom of expression * Oh, and that ongoing massacre in Tibet

stcredzero 18y ago
As for Tibet, it is quite similar to what we did to the Native Americans, the Chinese are just doing it more quickly.
- nutmeg 18y ago
  That doesn't make it any more right
  - randallsquared 18y ago
    I think he was trying to say it wasn't more wrong, which carries a different connotation.
- jacoblyles 18y ago
  I think the Chinese view the Tibetan mission as one of colonization and modernization, while violently putting down groups opposed to Chinese rule. Their internal media, at least, views it as a humanitarian mission, not genocide. Don't know who's right. Could anyone point out information that China's goal is the elimination of the Tibetan people, instead of rule over them? Seems like they could have finished by now if they just wanted to kill them all.
  - stcredzero 18y ago
    There were also "humanitarian" justifications with the Native American situation.
    - jacoblyles 18y ago

bokonist 18y ago

In terms of economic freedom, China has the edge. The cardinal rule is, "you cannot write, read, or do anything that threatens the legitimacy of the party." That kind of limit on free speech certainly does not appeal to me, but I don't think it in anyway cripples the economy.

tokenadult 18y ago
I'm not sure I agree that China actually offers more economic freedom to most of its people than America does. Most people in China don't even have a formal legal right to move their residence to a new town. The cardinal rule is, "you cannot write, read, or do anything that threatens the legitimacy of the party." That kind of limit on free speech certainly does not appeal to me, but I don't think it in anyway cripples the economy. But this I very specifically disagree with. The ruling party of China intervenes in the economy in very many ways in China, and leaving criticism of the party off-limits in public discourse means that sound discussion of economic policy at a deep and detailed level can't happen. China has had a bubble economy over the last decade or more, but it's unclear this year how much of the bubble is popping, because the state-controlled media are not engaging in vigorous reporting about what is really happening to real estate projects invested in by local governments or many other government-intertwined economic projects. An economy thrives better with more transparency.
- jhancock 18y ago
  I agree with you. But "sound discussion of economic policy at a deep and detailed level" does actually happen. People do openly talk about such things in China. The censorship is not that complete. Where there are pain points, you will find people shouting about it. You are correct that local media does not disclose the whole truth. But that's not too different than U.S. mainstream media. "An economy thrives better with more transparency." agreed!!!
- bokonist 18y ago
  Both good points. Determining whether the U.S. or China has more economic freedom is difficult, because their ways of restricting freedom are so different. discourse means that sound discussion of economic policy at a deep and detailed level can't happen. It definitely happens among the elites, I once attended a workshop in Guangzhou about problems in urban planning. You can criticize the government's actions, you just cannot question its legitimacy. But even then you probably won't be jailed. Being an open supporter of democracy in China is like being an open racist in the U.S. You probably won't get jailed, but you will find your career not going so well. It is true you see far less policy debate in the popular press, but personally I'd have to be convinced that there is any link between the amount of popular debate over a certain issue and the quality of the eventual solution. Lack of transparency is always definitely an economic hindrance, no question there. It's a bad problem both in China and the U.S..

cowmoo 18y ago

Caution: Personal bias stemming as a Chinese-born U.S citizen. One reason for American dominance after WWII was that so much of Europe's manufacturing capability was destroyed by war. America has (about) the same manufacturing base as 2 years ago. Currently, lots of U.S manufacturing, save for defense-related projects have been outsourced elsewhere (i.e., GM/Ford cars are only 50%, 60% made in the U.S; GM cars sold in China, are often assembled and with many parts made in a GM-Shanghai joint-venture factories; Pratt & Whitney and GE Aircraft engines out-source their engine compressors to low-cost developing countries such as Poland, etc.). Perhaps what's even more alarming, is how many industrial and high-tech companies have out-sourced their R&D to China: Intel, AMD, United Technologies, GM, MSFT all have R&D centers in Shanghai or Beijing. So Chinese manufacturing, on both low-end and high-end, I would argue is booming. Another is the strength of American industry was fed by migration of farmers' sons and daughters into the cities .... they had a lot of practical skills See cities like Shenzhen and Wuxi. Actually, the bulk of Chinese growth is attributed to a major migration of farmers' sons and daughters from in-land China to the coastal cities' huge factory complex. This makes for China's low-end exports. As for having practical skills, China pumps a great deal of math/science/engineering graduates, more per capita than U.S - a good percentage of whom would then later pursue post-doc or graduate work in the U.S/Europe. So I would argue, that Chinese human capital is also booming. Finally there is the question of relative amount of freedom. In absolute terms, yes, U.S enjoys more political, social and economic freedom. But I would argue, that Westerner's tend to overestimate the "freedom" disparity between themselves and other "authoritative regimes." In another words, U.S, IMHO is not a pure meritocracy either (corporate personnel is often determined via social connections or pedigree; political candidates are often chosen by back-room deals). Yes, there is tremendous room for China to improve on its human rights and political autonomy; but the whole Western democratic ideal/Plato's Republic is just another manifestation of the European "holier than thou" attitude, left over the colonial times.

jhancock 18y ago
well said. As for your cautionary personal bias...from my experience, anyone that has lived in China can appreciate your position.. its not necessary to be of Chinese decent.