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I think university credentials are holding all of society back. For a thousand years, universities had little to do with making a living for most people in soci

by SiVal 14y ago

I think university credentials are holding all of society back. For a thousand years, universities had little to do with making a living for most people in society. They were for training academics, churchmen, and lawyers, and for the scions of rich families to get to know each other. The majority of households became able to support themselves by mechanisms other than going to college. It is only in the last generation (VERY recently in the thousand year history of the system) that universities have become almost the monopoly source of employment qualification. How ironic is it that as economic activity diversifies, qualification for entry narrows into a single queue? One result of the university being the only door into the entire economy is that people assume that the way to do the best in the economy is to do the best in the university system. Get the most elite degree possible, and you'll have your pick of elite careers. But it doesn't work that way. The university and the economy are two different worlds. People with PhDs in Etruscan history from Harvard are elite in the university system, and for every ten of them, there will be one academic job available. The other nine will have to leave the system and be no more qualified than people with far more ordinary degrees to be of value in the real economy. But they'll think they deserve more because, after all, they were the winners of the system that everyone has to go through to qualify for a job. What a mess. The sooner we can diversify the training and credentialing system to match the diversified economy, the better.

rjzzleep 14y ago
it is the very reason why a lot of really smart people drop of out of the universities. essentially the only thing it really proves is that you're very good at doing what you're told, the way you were told. yes, there are very smart professors. I have met many. I have met equally if not more really dumb professors. they're not stupid per se, but they can only think in the procedures they have been taught to think. chomsky made the argument that by the end of your academic career in general you are already chewed, so that you are part of the system, unless you have strong enough peers that keep you from getting assimilated. gatto in his book the underground history of american education made the argument that the education system is really made to generate a class society. personally I think it's a system that nurtures mediocracy. the university system wants is based on the most common denominator to get as many "well enough trained" workslaves out as possible. to do that efficiently you essentially have to cut out the top and the bottom, and keep the rest. i recently sat in a room where they wanted to introduce the new head of development. some random dude, not particularly interesting, but just got a ph.d in computer science, associate professor in a random university. If I was running the show, he wouldn't even have made it past the first interview. but i just sat still nodding and making a note on how I could use a ph.d right now
- Bjuukia 14y ago
  Yeah, I'd like to know what this particular professor was trying to teach me. The semester was almost over, and I was turning in my last paper. I tried my best to do it well. But he kept returning it to me, saying it was "bad" (no reason given even though I asked several times to know what was wrong so I could fix it). Each time I tried to improve it, he said it was "bad" and returned it to me, saying he refused to grade the paper I was really ill at the time (sleeping 14+ hours per day, then falling asleep everywhere; I was really weak). The effort I put on the paper was making me have bad grades on my other classes. I begged the professor to let me turn in the paper as it was, even if I got a zero (I would still pass the class). I explained my situation, but he still refused. I dropped out of the class even though semester was practically over. The stress of it was killing me. So I got no grade or credit for the class. Idiots like these shouldn't be teaching. Then again he was pretty racist and misogynist, and was always picking on me and glaring at me even if he was talking to another student. Wish I'd known better at the time, I should have reported him, but just the effort to get to my classes everyday was awful. It took me 6 years to get healthier (I had to drop out because of how bad I got), so it's only recently that I realized how absurd the situation was. I wonder what he was trying to teach me?
  - textminer 14y ago
    Best Kafka-short-as-an-HN-comment I've ever read. Won't be sleeping tonight.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
redwood 14y ago
Maybe another way of looking at it: most Americans now get the university experience, something you note used to be reserved for social mixing of wealthy families. In other words: the masses are now experiencing a quality of life only the wealthy once had. Instead of seeing this a problem, I see it as the tip of the iceberg. What is the college lifestyle? It's essentially the dream: do what you want, don't worry because everything is taken care of for the most part. It's like socialism: the good and the bad. You don't have to work very hard and there's little payoff for being the hardest worker. But at the same time, there's plenty of experimentation, outside the box thinking: everything is questioned. Many of us suggest that machines do more and more of the heavy lifting, as humans are allowed to be the 'artists' (or whatever you want to call it) that they want to be... We hear this a lot: that we're on this kind of a trend and it'll continue until we need to make major political changes (a la distribution of wealth and ownership of production) to ensure harmonious society is possible. Well: I suggest that we're already part-way here. It's just that most of us experience this for only 4 years...or roughly 8% of our adult lives. I suggest that this 8% will only grow and our societies will need to change, politically, in order to let this happen. There are the credential-obsessed individuals on college campuses, but they're actually a small minority. Most are just living the life of freedom for a few years before learning what work is like. Wouldn't you go back and live college over again if you could now? awesome!
- xyzzy123 14y ago
  Unfortunately the "dream" lifestyle you described runs at a significant financial loss :( It's a bit less idyllic if you have to try and break even.
avenger123 14y ago
I don't believe its so much as university credentials but the question of where you get those credentials. Effectively the government has created a system that allows educational institutions to withdraw tax payer money through a backdoor. These institutions will help you fill out your student loan applications, get the money from the government and then it doesn't matter whether you fail, succeed or drop out. The educational institution has your money and now you owe the government to pay it back. With the changes brought on via the Bush administration, the student loan debt is no longer even allowed to be discharged at bankruptcy. The only time the debt is forgiven is if you die or are disabled and unable to work to pay. This change has brought on this incredible education bubble where you could spend over 100K on a liberal arts degree. The only way to fight this is to make a conscious decision of where one goes to school. If you are able to afford a $100,000 degree by paying for it in cash or via scholarships, then good for you. Otherwise, if one is going to go and get a computer science degree (as an example), does it make sense to go the "prestigious" university that is out of state with the $80K tuition funded by student loans? Or is one better of going to the local university which charges closer to $20k to $30k. If one is taking student loan's for the local university, the burden is somewhat manageable. I believe the media and the culture has made an impression on everyone that going to the "best" university regardless of cost is the most wonderful thing a young person can do for themselves. I believe in universities. I just don't believe anyone should be encouraged to pay extortion prices to get an education. The current bubble in education costs is extortion, pure and simple.

by SiVal 14y ago

rjzzleep 14y ago

it is the very reason why a lot of really smart people drop of out of the universities. essentially the only thing it really proves is that you're very good at doing what you're told, the way you were told. yes, there are very smart professors. I have met many. I have met equally if not more really dumb professors. they're not stupid per se, but they can only think in the procedures they have been taught to think. chomsky made the argument that by the end of your academic career in general you are already chewed, so that you are part of the system, unless you have strong enough peers that keep you from getting assimilated. gatto in his book the underground history of american education made the argument that the education system is really made to generate a class society. personally I think it's a system that nurtures mediocracy. the university system wants is based on the most common denominator to get as many "well enough trained" workslaves out as possible. to do that efficiently you essentially have to cut out the top and the bottom, and keep the rest. i recently sat in a room where they wanted to introduce the new head of development. some random dude, not particularly interesting, but just got a ph.d in computer science, associate professor in a random university. If I was running the show, he wouldn't even have made it past the first interview. but i just sat still nodding and making a note on how I could use a ph.d right now

Bjuukia 14y ago
Yeah, I'd like to know what this particular professor was trying to teach me. The semester was almost over, and I was turning in my last paper. I tried my best to do it well. But he kept returning it to me, saying it was "bad" (no reason given even though I asked several times to know what was wrong so I could fix it). Each time I tried to improve it, he said it was "bad" and returned it to me, saying he refused to grade the paper I was really ill at the time (sleeping 14+ hours per day, then falling asleep everywhere; I was really weak). The effort I put on the paper was making me have bad grades on my other classes. I begged the professor to let me turn in the paper as it was, even if I got a zero (I would still pass the class). I explained my situation, but he still refused. I dropped out of the class even though semester was practically over. The stress of it was killing me. So I got no grade or credit for the class. Idiots like these shouldn't be teaching. Then again he was pretty racist and misogynist, and was always picking on me and glaring at me even if he was talking to another student. Wish I'd known better at the time, I should have reported him, but just the effort to get to my classes everyday was awful. It took me 6 years to get healthier (I had to drop out because of how bad I got), so it's only recently that I realized how absurd the situation was. I wonder what he was trying to teach me?
- textminer 14y ago
  Best Kafka-short-as-an-HN-comment I've ever read. Won't be sleeping tonight.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

redwood 14y ago

Maybe another way of looking at it: most Americans now get the university experience, something you note used to be reserved for social mixing of wealthy families. In other words: the masses are now experiencing a quality of life only the wealthy once had. Instead of seeing this a problem, I see it as the tip of the iceberg. What is the college lifestyle? It's essentially the dream: do what you want, don't worry because everything is taken care of for the most part. It's like socialism: the good and the bad. You don't have to work very hard and there's little payoff for being the hardest worker. But at the same time, there's plenty of experimentation, outside the box thinking: everything is questioned. Many of us suggest that machines do more and more of the heavy lifting, as humans are allowed to be the 'artists' (or whatever you want to call it) that they want to be... We hear this a lot: that we're on this kind of a trend and it'll continue until we need to make major political changes (a la distribution of wealth and ownership of production) to ensure harmonious society is possible. Well: I suggest that we're already part-way here. It's just that most of us experience this for only 4 years...or roughly 8% of our adult lives. I suggest that this 8% will only grow and our societies will need to change, politically, in order to let this happen. There are the credential-obsessed individuals on college campuses, but they're actually a small minority. Most are just living the life of freedom for a few years before learning what work is like. Wouldn't you go back and live college over again if you could now? awesome!

xyzzy123 14y ago
Unfortunately the "dream" lifestyle you described runs at a significant financial loss :( It's a bit less idyllic if you have to try and break even.

avenger123 14y ago

I don't believe its so much as university credentials but the question of where you get those credentials. Effectively the government has created a system that allows educational institutions to withdraw tax payer money through a backdoor. These institutions will help you fill out your student loan applications, get the money from the government and then it doesn't matter whether you fail, succeed or drop out. The educational institution has your money and now you owe the government to pay it back. With the changes brought on via the Bush administration, the student loan debt is no longer even allowed to be discharged at bankruptcy. The only time the debt is forgiven is if you die or are disabled and unable to work to pay. This change has brought on this incredible education bubble where you could spend over 100K on a liberal arts degree. The only way to fight this is to make a conscious decision of where one goes to school. If you are able to afford a $100,000 degree by paying for it in cash or via scholarships, then good for you. Otherwise, if one is going to go and get a computer science degree (as an example), does it make sense to go the "prestigious" university that is out of state with the $80K tuition funded by student loans? Or is one better of going to the local university which charges closer to $20k to $30k. If one is taking student loan's for the local university, the burden is somewhat manageable. I believe the media and the culture has made an impression on everyone that going to the "best" university regardless of cost is the most wonderful thing a young person can do for themselves. I believe in universities. I just don't believe anyone should be encouraged to pay extortion prices to get an education. The current bubble in education costs is extortion, pure and simple.