4 ms·

Here's the money quote: "Java has two parts: the runtime that runs on your computer (and lets you run Java apps), and the browser plug-in that comes along with

by smoyer 14y ago

Here's the money quote: "Java has two parts: the runtime that runs on your computer (and lets you run Java apps), and the browser plug-in that comes along with it. When people talk about Java being insecure, they're talking about the browser plug-in. Java apps themselves aren't inherently insecure, it's the browser plug-in that causes problems." A world in which Java (the run-time) suddenly disappeared would be completely non-functional due to the amount of enterprise software that runs on the JRE. And while Java (the language) is often bashed for it's verbosity, many of the up-and-coming, "cool" languages target the JRE as their run-time environment. Unfortunately, burying that paragraph in a long article and stating "you probably don't need it" is the wrong story to tell. You probably couldn't live (your modern life) without it, but you may not need to have it installed on your computer. EDIT 1: I also should have mentioned that Javascript is not "safe" ... it's "safer" than it used to be because browsers have gotten way better at "sand-boxing" its behavior (I love LocalStorage!). Applets were designed to allow browser-based applications access to the underlying computer's OS, so it should be no surprise that there are more vulnerabilities. And if you think about the biggest attack vectors on the IE browsers (at least the older ones), ActiveX shares this trait (I won't call it a problem). For Android users, you should realize that when you authorize applications to use various features of your phone or tablet, you're explicitly opening holes in Android's default security model (fully sand-boxed). EDIT 2: My favorite quote (so far) on the life-hacker site is "Java does have some legitimate uses (namely Minecraft) ...". The rest of his commentary sounds like the rants typically found in language wars (I won't participate).

martinced 14y ago
Spot on. People do not realize that in some countries virtually all the citizen are carrying a Java SmartCard on them at all time (either an ID card or a medical security card). People do not realize that there are billions of devices running Java (like TV decoders) and that Java is even officially part of some specs (e.g. you cannot have a Blu-Ray player without having Java). In addition to basically power the entire banking infrastructure (it's damn near close to impossible to make an electronic payment without having Java involved in the process) and pretty much the entire corporate world, Java also powers a gigantic number of high-target websites (like eBay and FedEx). And even in browsers, without needing applets, Java is also used to generate JavaScript (GWT and ClojureScript being to examples -- at this point ClojureScript still needs the JVM to compile to JavaScript). And Android, of course. Java is going to dwarf COBOL's legacy. Big times. The real sadness here is that the writing was on the wall: any knowledgeable Java programmer knew, 15 years ago, that Java applets were an insecure piece of excremental technology. You don't know how many time I've vomited on Java applet in Usenet's comp.lang.java.programmer years ago, saying how big of a mistake and loss of energy it was... Only to have the likes of Jon Skeet and Roedy Green defending Java applets tooth and nail.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  "TV decoders" written in Java? edit: thanks for the info, repliers.
  - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
    All of Time Warner's Digital Cable boxes, for example.
    - superuser2 14y ago
      Is that why there's 2-3 second lag responding to button presses and biweekly crashed?
      - brokenparser 14y ago
        No, programmers can be rushed by management or plain incompetent in any language.
      - zoowar 14y ago
        DirecTV has similar lags at times. I would love for them to open source the UI and allow hackers to fix and impove it.
      - _djo_ 14y ago
        There are many embedded devices running Java that are quick and efficient, so whatever slowness those cable boxes have is not due to the technology used. It's probably due to the same organisational problems that cause all slow and bloated software. In the case of cable or satellite TV decoders there's usually more focus from management on adding features fast than on making the software bulletproof.
  - OGC 14y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Home_Platform#DVB-J http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Home_Platform#DVB-J
- 14y ago
taeric 14y ago
Well, to be fair, I think the answer is essentially, "if you do not know why you need it, then you probably do not need it." This is true for pretty much everything on your computer.
- mich41 14y ago
  Tell this to somebody who doesn't know what kernel is for. Your computer contains lots of stuff you use daily without being aware of it.
  - taeric 14y ago
    I had a feeling I would get that counter point. I would presume that folks can educate themselves on things. I realize that is an optimistic stance that is not shared by the majority around here.
    - blaabjerg 14y ago
      They can, but assuming that people (can) have a perfect understanding of all the technology they use in their daily life is not only optimistic, it is entirely unrealistic.
      - taeric 14y ago
        True, but if you hear that folks are having concerns with item X, and you see you have item X, then you should make sure you know why you have it. Hell, I'd consider that to be extended to non computer things, honestly.
  - smoyer 14y ago
    When my eldest children were about 6 and 4 respectively, we got a Windows 98 computer that they could use at home. One of the things I love about kids and computers is that they're fearless. They learn through trial-and-error without the slightest hesitation. In contrast, teaching your parents to use the computer is full of questions about whether they're "allowed" to do something. Anyway, my daughter (four years old at the time) got a new game (probably educational) and when she tried to run it, she was told there wasn't enough hard drive space and her mom told her to "wait until dad gets home". Undaunted, she went looking at the hard drive and recognized most of the programs as games she (or her brother) played, but noticed one they never used ... that game was called "Windows". (The reinstall included an update to Windows XP and restricted user accounts for each of the kids ... I learned something too).
berlinbrown 14y ago
I would even go a step further and talk about the Java runtime plugin supplied by Oracle for Windows?

by smoyer 14y ago

martinced 14y ago

Spot on. People do not realize that in some countries virtually all the citizen are carrying a Java SmartCard on them at all time (either an ID card or a medical security card). People do not realize that there are billions of devices running Java (like TV decoders) and that Java is even officially part of some specs (e.g. you cannot have a Blu-Ray player without having Java). In addition to basically power the entire banking infrastructure (it's damn near close to impossible to make an electronic payment without having Java involved in the process) and pretty much the entire corporate world, Java also powers a gigantic number of high-target websites (like eBay and FedEx). And even in browsers, without needing applets, Java is also used to generate JavaScript (GWT and ClojureScript being to examples -- at this point ClojureScript still needs the JVM to compile to JavaScript). And Android, of course. Java is going to dwarf COBOL's legacy. Big times. The real sadness here is that the writing was on the wall: any knowledgeable Java programmer knew, 15 years ago, that Java applets were an insecure piece of excremental technology. You don't know how many time I've vomited on Java applet in Usenet's comp.lang.java.programmer years ago, saying how big of a mistake and loss of energy it was... Only to have the likes of Jon Skeet and Roedy Green defending Java applets tooth and nail.

drivebyacct2 14y ago
"TV decoders" written in Java? edit: thanks for the info, repliers.
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  All of Time Warner's Digital Cable boxes, for example.
  - superuser2 14y ago
    Is that why there's 2-3 second lag responding to button presses and biweekly crashed?
    - brokenparser 14y ago
      No, programmers can be rushed by management or plain incompetent in any language.
    - zoowar 14y ago
      DirecTV has similar lags at times. I would love for them to open source the UI and allow hackers to fix and impove it.
    - _djo_ 14y ago
      There are many embedded devices running Java that are quick and efficient, so whatever slowness those cable boxes have is not due to the technology used. It's probably due to the same organisational problems that cause all slow and bloated software. In the case of cable or satellite TV decoders there's usually more focus from management on adding features fast than on making the software bulletproof.
- OGC 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Home_Platform#DVB-J http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Home_Platform#DVB-J
14y ago

taeric 14y ago

Well, to be fair, I think the answer is essentially, "if you do not know why you need it, then you probably do not need it." This is true for pretty much everything on your computer.

mich41 14y ago
Tell this to somebody who doesn't know what kernel is for. Your computer contains lots of stuff you use daily without being aware of it.
- taeric 14y ago
  I had a feeling I would get that counter point. I would presume that folks can educate themselves on things. I realize that is an optimistic stance that is not shared by the majority around here.
  - blaabjerg 14y ago
    They can, but assuming that people (can) have a perfect understanding of all the technology they use in their daily life is not only optimistic, it is entirely unrealistic.
    - taeric 14y ago
      True, but if you hear that folks are having concerns with item X, and you see you have item X, then you should make sure you know why you have it. Hell, I'd consider that to be extended to non computer things, honestly.
- smoyer 14y ago
  When my eldest children were about 6 and 4 respectively, we got a Windows 98 computer that they could use at home. One of the things I love about kids and computers is that they're fearless. They learn through trial-and-error without the slightest hesitation. In contrast, teaching your parents to use the computer is full of questions about whether they're "allowed" to do something. Anyway, my daughter (four years old at the time) got a new game (probably educational) and when she tried to run it, she was told there wasn't enough hard drive space and her mom told her to "wait until dad gets home". Undaunted, she went looking at the hard drive and recognized most of the programs as games she (or her brother) played, but noticed one they never used ... that game was called "Windows". (The reinstall included an update to Windows XP and restricted user accounts for each of the kids ... I learned something too).

berlinbrown 14y ago

I would even go a step further and talk about the Java runtime plugin supplied by Oracle for Windows?